The Hagia Sophia

@fmf said
Of course, people were "upset". To care about the issue is fine. To wish things about the building is fine. To hope that Erdogan would do something unexpected is fine. Like I said before, you didn't say you cared about it. You didn't say you were critical of it. You didn't say you were appalled by it or uspset. No. You literally said you were "personally insulted" by it.

LOL,

"WhY YoU PerSoNaLlY InSulTeD?

"WhY NoT... JuSt UpSet... or ApPalLed..?"

OK, bruv.

Why is it bad to feel personally insulted, and to not just be generally appalled?

Would it be OK to feel appalled... and to hold that close to one's heart?

I really need to get the Doctor of Psychology and expert on appropriate human sentiment, FMF, to teach me where I went wrong.

@fmf said
This sounds just as silly and shallow to me - in terms of groupist posturing and playing the victim card - as is the notion of reparations for Black Americans for abrogated rights hundreds of years ago.

I've never been victimized by the Turks or anyone else...

But I am personally insulted by them.

I expect no reparations, but would love for the Hagia Sophia, which can continue serving as a major site of pilgrimage off of which the Turkish government profits, to be reconsecrated.

Imagine hearing the Divine Liturgy here:

But for a group of scholars, scientists and musicians, Hagia Sophia’s rededication as a Muslim place of worship threatens to cloak a less tangible treasure: its sound. Bissera Pentcheva, an art historian at Stanford University and an expert in the burgeoning field of acoustic archaeology, has spent the past decade studying the building’s extravagantly reverberant acoustics to reconstruct the sonic world of Byzantine cathedral music. Ms. Pentcheva argues that Hagia Sophia’s mystical brilliance reveals itself fully only if it is viewed as a vessel for animated light — and sound.

https://archive.is/VHf8d#selection-505.0-513.148

A sad reminder of what they took from us.

@philokalia said
So trolling well makes you Hitler?

Your explanation of what you consider "legendary" fits Hitler.
Sad that I had to explain that.

@philokalia said
Why is it bad to feel personally insulted, and to not just be generally appalled?

It strikes me as the same kind emotional weakness and sense of victimhood that underpins a lot of the tawdry and navel-gazing identity politics that has tainted public discourse and public domain in too many places around the world.

To be appalled by something can at least be level-headed but claiming to be personally insulted about something that happened 500+ years ago is not level-headed.

I deduce that it is something to do with your brand new religious zeal, that, or your brand new religious caters to a identity-politics-type need that you have.

@philokalia said
I've never been victimized by the Turks or anyone else...

But I am personally insulted by them.

If you feel "personally insulted" ~ if it has affected you in that way ~ then you are a victim of an "insult".

@philokalia said
I expect no reparations, but would love for the Hagia Sophia, which can continue serving as a major site of pilgrimage off of which the Turkish government profits, to be reconsecrated.

So you don't want the building and the expensive real estate upon which it stands to be given to you church?

@philokalia said
I really need to get the Doctor of Psychology and expert on appropriate human sentiment, FMF, to teach me where I went wrong.

What you revealed about yourself, to my way of thinking, suggests some sort of strange psychological effect stemming from adopted religiosity ~ where one actually reaches back into history and starts to find things to be "personally insulted" by. Is this some kind of psychological phenomenon, I wonder? Is it some sort of emotional impact of religious fervour, where feelings of being "insulted" suddenly appear in one's mind brought on by subscribing to a group's religious doctrines and taking a new interest in a particular culture? To me, this apparent psychological effect of becoming religious is fascinating.

@fmf said
It strikes me as the same kind emotional weakness and sense of victimhood that underpins a lot of the tawdry and navel-gazing identity politics that has tainted public discourse and public domain in too many places around the world.

To be appalled by something can at least be level-headed but claiming to be personally insulted about something that happened 500+ years ago is n ...[text shortened]... gious zeal, that, or your brand new religious caters to a identity-politics-type need that you have.

You are actually wrong: I am personally insulted by that which has occurred this very year and spawned the very thread yuo created.

Every Christian should take their holy sites seriously. For what is more personal than our religion.

@fmf said
What you revealed about yourself, to my way of thinking, suggests some sort of strange psychological effect stemming from adopted religiosity ~ where one actually reaches back into history and starts to find things to be "personally insulted" by. Is this some kind of psychological phenomenon, I wonder? Is it some sort of emotional impact of religious fervour, where feelings of be ...[text shortened]... particular culture? To me, this apparent psychological effect of becoming religious is fascinating.

Bravo, amazing stuff here, FMF.

Being religious might make you care for your religion, which results in other strange psychological effects, like caring about contemporary news stories that involve your religion.

You might even have sharper opinions about religious events involving your religion.

I've learned so much today.

@philokalia said
Every Christian should take their holy sites seriously. For what is more personal than our religion.

What is “holy” about bricks and mortar?

@fmf said
If you feel "personally insulted" ~ if it has affected you in that way ~ then you are a victim of an "insult".

The word 'insult' often does not mean a literal insult along the lines of 'you stink!' or 'you are a beta male!'

It can be more about the general content being insulting to a group:

"How many insults are black voters supposed to take from Joe Biden?"
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/08/10/opinion/how-many-insults-are-black-voters-supposed-take-joe-biden/

"The Donald Trump Comparison To Ronald Reagan Insults Reagan"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2016/06/29/donald-trump-and-reagan-style-prosperity-insults-ronald-reagan/#1ee9b77a3592

Etc.

The insult becomes personal when yuo are connected to the site through something that is a bit distinctive from other people.

Just as such, a Catholic may take attacks on the Vatican personally, or a Muslim on Mecca.

The only reason you bring up this strange angle of attack is because of your own personal vendetta against me.

Which is fine.

But it's really starting to waste time it's ceasing to be entertaining.

@philokalia said
Being religious might make you care for your religion, which results in other strange psychological effects, like caring about contemporary news stories that involve your religion.

I don't see anything amiss with people caring for their religion. As you well know, that is not what I am talking about.

@philokalia said
The insult becomes personal when yuo are connected to the site through something that is a bit distinctive from other people.

I don't see how being connected to the site through "something that is a bit distinctive from other people" justifies claiming to be "personally insulted". It comes off as manufactured outrage. You read the news, a museum of 70 years' standing is reverting to be a mosque. "Tut, tut, that's terrible; the people in my church 500 years ago suffered a great indignity and travesty..." Yes, I get that. But feelings of being "personally insulted"? It's intriguing. It's an off-shoot of religiosity, I suppose.

@philokalia said
Just as such, a Catholic may take attacks on the Vatican personally, or a Muslim on Mecca.

The cathedral you are emoting about was "attacked" 560 years ago. It hasn't been a cathedral for the entirety of the intervening 560 years. The news about the Hagia Sophia was not an "attack" on you. If anything, it was an "attack" on the custodians of the excellent museum which had stood on the site for more than 70 years.