Originally posted by knightmeisterIf so, one of you ought to be able to read the verses I quote in the proper context, right? The christian response so far has been to ignore the implications of those verses entirely.
You are right Bigdogg but the problem is that you have taken one single verse and given it a wider meaning over all other verses. Anyone who has studied religious scripture (or even history for example) knows that you cannot take one verse out of context give it a meaning over and above the other verses. Jesus also said " Anyone who comes to me I will never turn away"
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem"Another poor analogy. Parents don't have control of fire, but God has control of who goes to hell. The bible makes it clear that it is God who casts the body and soul into hell.
[b]It is relevant because you appear to regard warnings of danger to be threats and coercion. A world without warnings is in your warped concept a world of "freedom".
Your problem is that you like preaching instead of debating. I'll ignore this crude distortion of my views.
I suppose that when your earthly parents warned you not to play w ...[text shortened]... annot answer the charges. What part of 'depart from me, ye cursed' do you not understand?
The answer to the rest of you analogies is simple. Just punisments are acceptable, excessive and cruel punishments are not. Your God wishes to send people to hell for breaking one law, regardless of the seriousness of the offense"BIGDOGG
The problem really is that God is so good and loving and holy that he finds any kind of "offense" a problem. His love is SO pure that he can't help but react against our sinfulness. HOWEVER , the purity of his love is such that it is also utterly compassionate (which is where Christ comes in ) and understanding so that he takes into account that we are less than perfect and does not judge us as such. It's not that he wishes hell for us it's just that his holiness means that he cannot bear to be around anything sinful or evil. So if you want to be in heaven then you have to be purified first. This all sounds very uncomprimising I know , and it would be unbelievably harsh and cruel if God just left it at that ,,,but he hasn't , he gave Jesus to become our purity for us.
Any "threat" or warning is their for our benefit , but he can't not be holy , he would not be God anymore. That's the stuff he is made of I'm afraid , holiness and pure eternal love. If you want to approach him as you are thinking you are righteous enough without wearing the protective "suit" of Jesus's blood then good luck to you , but don't be surprised if he turns you away. If you refuse to approach him humbly then he has no choice but to find somewhere else for you.
Me:
It is relevant because you appear to regard warnings of danger to be threats and coercion. A world without warnings is in your warped concept a world of "freedom".
You:
Your problem is that you like preaching instead of debating. I'll ignore this crude distortion of my views.
That's convenient. The points that you don't want to counter put away in the "preaching" catagory.
Originally posted by jaywillI imagine this is yet another copy job. It is painfully obvious you don't actually read the Bible but rely on crib notes prepared by some far out "Fundamentalist" sect.
It is obvious the sheep and the goats were threatened?
If the sheep are ignorant of who they performed these good deeds to in doing them to the sick, homeless, inprisioned, and hungry, then how could they have been reacting to that person's threat? They didn't know that Christ was behind the scenes being the actual recipient of their good deeds. So how Matthew 25:31-46 is not the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15.[/b]
jaywill: This passage does not refer to the final judgment at the great white throne at the end of the Bible.
UMM, yes it does:
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
You should also read the two parables in Matthew 25, who's message is directly relevant to Judgment Day.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAnd here lies the fundamental difference between us. You find this heartwarming, but I find it horrifying.
The problem really is that God is so good and loving and holy that he finds any kind of "offense" a problem. His love is SO pure that he can't help but react against our sinfulness.
We wouldn't call a parent who straps his child in an electric chair and throws the switch "affectionate", even if that child is a mass-murderer. And yet you claim that God sending people to hell is "good and loving". I think you're demented.
Originally posted by jaywillLook up 'distortion' in the dictionary.
[b]Me:
It is relevant because you appear to regard warnings of danger to be threats and coercion. A world without warnings is in your warped concept a world of "freedom".
You:
Your problem is that you like preaching instead of debating. I'll ignore this crude distortion of my views.
That's convenient. The points that you don't want to counter put away in the "preaching" catagory.[/b]
Originally posted by knightmeisterSorry, but all this doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't true love mean that you are able to love and are willing to be around someone despite all their faults? When Jesus sought out people who were living a sinful life, was that because his love wasn't pure? If so, pure love doesn't sound like a good thing. And how does God's holiness mean that he can't bear to be around anything sinful and evil? Is his holiness so fragile that it needs to be protected? And even if he can't bear to have those of us who aren't purified around, why can't he give us a place away from him which nevertheless isn't a place of torture and eternal suffering? How can he reconcile the creation of a place like hell if he is made of holiness and pure eternal love?
The problem really is that God is so good and loving and holy that he finds any kind of "offense" a problem. His love is SO pure that he can't help but react against our sinfulness. HOWEVER , the purity of his love is such that it is also utterly compassionate (which is where Christ comes in ) and understanding so that he takes into account that we are ...[text shortened]... to approach him humbly then he has no choice but to find somewhere else for you.
Another poor analogy. Parents don't have control of fire, but God has control of who goes to hell. The bible makes it clear that it is God who casts the body and soul into hell.
The have control over a spanking with a belt or a going to a room without dinner.
I would not expect there to be any perfect analogy between limited, fallible earthly parents and an eternal perfect God Whom no one and nothing transcends. Any analogy would be only that, an approximation.
Moving ther goal post around by pointing out differences between fallible, limited earthly parents and an unlimited and holy God of eternity is not a very good rebuttal.
The answer to the rest of you analogies is simple. Just punisments are acceptable, excessive and cruel punishments are not. Your God wishes to send people to hell for breaking one law, regardless of the seriousness of the offense.
You imagine a world in rebellion against the universe's ultimate righteous authority to be eternally pleasant. No such reality exists. He is the source of blessing and well being. And it is His responsiblitly to make it clear to you that a revolt against God cannot be a winning situation forever.
Perhaps you have no idea of the far reaching effects of your sins on the whole fabric of a perfect and harmonious life. Perhaps you take your sins lightly.
The issue for me is not just the severity of God, but "the kindness and severity of God". My coin has two sides. You are fixated on one aspect of God only. This is what I said is warped.
"Behold the kindness AND the severity of God" wrote the Apostle Paul. You want God to have only ONE side. That of the ultimate Permissivist.
While you spend you life to contemplate on the severity of God some of us choose to look at both sides of the matter - "the kindness and severity of God". We prefer balance. And we appreciate in the Bible the tremendous things God has gone through to effect fallen sinners with His kindness.
In fact redemption is more than a matter of kindness. It is a matter that whether God like you or not He is bound to absolve you of guilt of sin because you believe in Christ. He has to forgive you. It is righteous for Him to forgive you. Even if He decided that He did not like you, He is bound by His own righteousness to forgive the believer in Christ.
That person has been judged already - at the cross of Jesus. I bet for every sentence you can find about damnation I can find three on His mercy, His grace, His action to save man from eternal judgment.
Your concept is fixated in a warped way, in a way without balance. There are 150 Psalms in the Bible. Have you read those Psalms? Do you see no longsuffering of God in any of those Psalms? Do you see no kindness, no patience, no mercy of God in any of those 150 Psalms?
I'm sorry if your Bible seems to contain one verse about going to the fire and nothing else. Mine has 66 books which contain many more things about other attributes of God along with His severity in judging those who wish to follow their leader Satan to his reward.
Which is more likely if there is a God Who is Creator of all?
1.) His creatures surpass God in wisdom. And this mistake prone and faulty God needs to sit at our feet and learn a thing or two about being the Ultimate Governor of all creation.
2.) He is Perfect and if we do not agree with something of His way, possibly the shortsightedness is on our side.
Which sounds more probable?
If the Faulty Error Prone God who needs the tutoring of His creatures is more likely then what is the higher authority to which we need to point God to in order for Him to make up for His deficiencies?
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThat's right. And if your father or mother EVER disciplined you it was ALSO for the purpose that you would have a healthy fear of them too.
"Fear Him who has the power to cast body and soul into Hell."
But if you are equiped to correct God and teach Him about Justice and Salvation then you must be of a higher character than Jesus Christ.
When are you going to make your mark on human history? I know that Jesus had a cataclysmic impact on human history because of His character. If you rise above God so as to scold Him and straighten Him out you must be of a finer quality of character Christ.
He has built up a certain amount of approvedness on this earth to many many nations over 2000 years. What kind of approvedness have you built up so that we can trust you to straighten out God as to the errors of His ways for us?
Originally posted by jaywillIt's most likely that no God with the bizarre nature you ascribe to him exists.
Which is more likely if there is a God Who is Creator of all?
1.) His creatures surpass God in wisdom. And this mistake prone and faulty God needs to sit at our feet and learn a thing or two about being the Ultimate Governor of all creation.
2.) He is Perfect and if we do not agree with something of His way, possibly the shortsightedness is on our si ...[text shortened]... her authority to which we need to point God to in order for Him to make up for His deficiencies?
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemDon't need to look up "distortions". I see plenty of great examples in distortions in your warped and biased criticisms of Christ and God of the Bible.
Look up 'distortion' in the dictionary.
You have furnished me with pristine examples of distortions. Thank God I read the Bible for myself.
Originally posted by jaywilljaywill: Thank God I read the Bible for myself.
Don't need to look up "distortions". I see plenty of great examples in distortions in your warped and biased criticisms of Christ and God of the Bible.
You have furnished me with pristine examples of distortions. Thank God I read the Bible for myself.
LMFAO at this BS.
Originally posted by no1marauderMost likely that Jesus Christ was HISTORY and not a legend or myth.
It's most likely that no God with the bizarre nature you ascribe to him exists.
And I take His word over yours anyday. He has the approvedness of being absolute for truth, even at the cost of His life.
Basically, I think you're only interested in your own skin. I see self sacrifice in Christ that persuades me that His Father and He are realities.
All I see in your philosophy is a complaint that God is not the Ultimate Permissivist, if God does exist.
He allows you to write quite a bit of negative things to the world about Him. I don't see Him zapping lightening your direction like Zeus or Thor.
You're hoodwinked and decieved into making the holy, loving, and righteous God your enemy. Someone has poured these slanders into your mind.