29 Oct 19
@sonship saidWhy have you seemingly called almost everyone you disagree with a "troll" at some point or other? It started about three years ago.
@FMF
I think you may have missed my reply to a "troll" question from you written above.
28 Oct '19 08:42
It starts with this sentence -
Time to humor you for the sake of some others who might be helped.
29 Oct 19
@sonship saidNope, I read it. If you started a blog, you wouldn't have to call dissenters "trolls" and constantly poison the well. You'd have the power to make their posts disappear instead.
I think you may have missed my reply to a "troll" question from you written above.
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29 Oct 19
Bump for Ghost
Come on Ghost. I am not forcing agreement between you and everything Witness Lee ministered. I just seek some modest progress in correcting your misunderstanding of an important point.
Those caught in a system led astray by Satan are not always automatically "condemned to Satan" Ie. in your interpretation condemned WITH him to eternal perdition.
Are you willing to make a little progress in a more accurate interpretation of Lee's words?
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29 Oct 19
@sonship saidWhy are you bumping me at 3am in the morning? (GMT). Is posting such things while I'm sleeping the only way you can kid yourself you have me on the back foot?
Bump for Ghost
Come on Ghost. I am not forcing agreement between you and everything Witness Lee ministered. I just seek some modest progress in correcting your misunderstanding of an important point.
Those caught in a system led astray by Satan are not always automatically "condemned to Satan" Ie. in your interpretation condemned WITH him to eternal perdition.
...[text shortened]... re you willing to make a little progress in a more accurate interpretation of Lee's words?
Pause a moment and consider how tenuous your statement is: - 'Those caught in a system led astray by Satan are not always automatically "condemned to Satan"
'Not always automatically.' What wishy-washy crap is that? Why are you taking Satan so lightly? Why are you telling your Christian brothers and sisters that being in an organization of Satan isn't the worst thing in the world? Don't sweat it. Following Satan doesn't always mean you are automatically condened to hell.
I think perhaps it is you Sonship who has misunderstood Witness Lee...
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
(Matthew 25:41)
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Why are you bumping me at 3am in the morning? (GMT). Is posting such things while I'm sleeping the only way you can kid yourself you have me on the back foot?I don't give lots of credence to when people post or respond. Delayed answers I respect as much as immediate ones if they are good.
Pause a moment and consider how tenuous your statement is: - 'Those caught in a system led astray by Satan are not always automatically "condemned to Satan"
You want to interpret condemned to Satan as condemned with or like Satan.
It doesn't hold and you're trying to salvage it.
Now, no doubt, there are those in Revelation who stubbornly go with Satan to perdition. But if you read the book you'll also see that some repented when seeing certain things, See chapter 11.
Anyway, I showed you the young widows that Paul said followed after Satan. And he didn't mean followed him into the lake of fire.
'Not always automatically.' What wishy-washy crap is that?
Lashing out wildly doesn't strengthen your case.
Why are you taking Satan so lightly?
I am not. I am just showing you that deceived by, influenced by, led astray by the Devil does not have to mean permanent association with so as to be condemned eternally along with him.
The WHOLE WORLD, John says, lies in the evil one. But the multitude of the saved from the whole world from all history is too big to be able to number. So says Revelation 7:9 - "no one could number". And they come from every people and tribe and tongue and nation.
So whole world being led astray by Satan is not whole world condemned with him. And any reference to Satan having too much control a religious system founded on the Bible neither means all within are condemned eternally.
Why are you telling your Christian brothers and sisters that being in an organization of Satan isn't the worst thing in the world? Don't sweat it. Following Satan doesn't always mean you are automatically condened to hell.
This is misrepresentation by going to the opposite extreme.
I think perhaps it is you Sonship who has misunderstood Witness Lee...
I think you realize a more accurate interpretation of what Witness Lee said will weaken your slander some.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
The goats to whom Jesus is speaking didn't know Jesus Christ. Furthermore plenty of charity occurs in Christianity's denominations.
And for the greater part it is because they DO know that Jesus wanted them to do these things that they do them.
So then - Revelation itself speaks of the demon infested Satan deceived Babylon telling His [God's] people to come out of her. So they are His people even though they were so deceived. This is repetition. I told you this probably six times already.
"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not participate in her sins, and that you may NOT ... receive of her plagues; for her sins have been piled up to heaven, and God has remembered their wrongs. (Rev. 18:4,5)
You're saying Witness Lee says Gods's people all stay there (not God's people then) and go to hell with the whole Babylon system. They are "condemned to Satan".
When that doesn't work then it is "Well why don't you and Witness Lee take seriously that some of God's people are stuck in that Satan polluted system?"
Both arguments fail.
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29 Oct 19
Why are you taking Satan so lightly?
Consider if you are influenced by something like Dante's Divine Comedy.
There in that religious literature Satan is frozen in hell in a lake of tears and chewing bewteen his teeth three great sinners. Maybe "condemned to Satan" brings up something like this in your imagination.
Ie. Satan is there and people are condemned TO him where he will harm them.
I think in biblical terms. .
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29 Oct 19
@sonship saidWe are not talking about 'some of God's people' 'a few lost sheep.' Witness Lee is much wider in his assessment of Satanic influence. He specifically targets Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Judaism.
You're saying Witness Lee says Gods's people all stay there (not God's people then) and go to hell with the whole Babylon system. They are "condemned to Satan".
When that doesn't work then it is "Well why don't you and Witness Lee take seriously that some of God's people are stuck in that Satan polluted system?"
Both arguments fail.
Now unless I missed it on the news, Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism continue to exist and practice the way they existed and practiced in the time of Lee, so by his judgement remain under satanic influence and in his organization. (Effectively they are now Satan's people, not God's). So unless there is a widespread overhaul of Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism they will remain in Satan's organization and share his fate (as prophesized in Revelation).
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29 Oct 19
6 edits
We are not talking about 'some of God's people' 'a few lost sheep.' Witness Lee is much wider in his assessment of Satanic influence. He specifically targets Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Judaism.
Before I go on with you about whether it is many, or few, or all ... FIRST I want to settle the matter of "condemned to Satan" does not carry the meaning necessarily that you wish it to carry -
Ie. "Witness Lee has condemned [some, a few, or many, or every last one] of his Christian brothers to eternal damnation."
So what is it going to be?
Cling to that concept OR
realize it goes too far into a misunderstanding ?
Move on that.
Now unless I missed it on the news, Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism continue to exist and practice the way they existed and practiced in the time of Lee, so by his judgement remain under satanic influence and in his organization. (Effectively they are now Satan's people, not God's).
Before we get into that argument, settle the above misunderstanding first.
Would I not be spinning my wheels if you hand wave me off to another problem and leave the previous one up in the air?
By speaking such frank words about religious structures Witness Lee WAS NOT saying they all would be going to hell?
Are you giving me that?
Or are you refusing to relinquish that concept ?
So unless there is a widespread overhaul of Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism they will remain in Satan's organization and share his fate (as prophesized in Revelation).
Decide on retaining or letting go of Ie. "Witness Lee condemns to damnation brothers and sister Christians and all in Judaism"
Then based on your willingness to admit you went too far, and will not bring THAT prejudice up again, I would like to proceed further to another of your difficulties.
Fast reply is not required.
An honest reply is requested.
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29 Oct 19
1 edit
@sonship saidYou alone sir are choosing to willfully misunderstand Lee. I stand by the reading I have given. Christians in an 'organization of Satan' are just that. Man can't serve 2 masters, Satan and God. If Lee is correct, such Christians are serving Satan (and will surely share his fate).
Before I go on with you about whether it is many, or few, or all ... FIRST I want to settle the matter of "condemned to Satan" does not carry the meaning necessarily that you wish it to carry -
Ie. "Witness Lee has condemned [some, a few, or many, or every last one] of his Christian brothers to eternal damnation."
So what is it going to be?
Cling to that concept OR
realize it goes too far into a misunderstanding ?
Accept that and address the pertinent points put to you.
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You alone sir are choosing to willfully misunderstand Lee. I stand by the reading I have given. Christians in an 'organiation of Satan' are just that. Man can't serve 2 masters, Satan and God. If Lee is correct, such Christians are serving Satan (and will surely share his fate).
Excuse me Ghost of a Duke. You have not read a book all the way through by Witness Lee. I have read over a period of forty five years - [ 1974 - 2019 ] a hundred or more.
Not only did I read books from messages I did not attend. I read books from messages that I personally attended and heard him in person. I also sat through hundreds of video recordings of messages he gave.
I spoke with him personally a small number of times taking particular issues to him and corresponded with him by mail once in his latter years before he died in 1997.
I understand Witness Lee's ministry. You, typical to this age, lift some criticized selective quotes from the Internet from hundreds of thousands of words and present them to me as enough to give you everything YOU need to know about Witness Lee's ministry.
I do not say there are no problems to be discussed. But I don't want to do it on a foundation of misunderstanding on your part. Try not to school me that I don't understand Lee when I am 100% MORE familiar with his life and work then you are.
Do you want to reconsider that Witness Lee, though he said in that instance something strong, was NOT condemning all or some or many Christian brothers and sisters to hell and all Jews in Judaism as well?
If so then we can go on to other difficulties related to those words, including did he totally exempt those under his own ministry, and the scope of the problem he saw.
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See if you can get through 6 to 10 minutes of this Ghost, while you consider, the attitude of Christians under Witness Lee's ministry toward those not.
A co-worker - Ron Kangus
NorCal Conference with Brother Ron Kangas 2018 Message 2
I will ask you if you understood what was said about six minutes into the video about being responsible for what Christian knew not for what they did not know.
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29 Oct 19
@sonship saidYour excessive reading of his work has only resulted in an intransigence.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
You alone sir are choosing to willfully misunderstand Lee. I stand by the reading I have given. Christians in an 'organiation of Satan' are just that. Man can't serve 2 masters, Satan and God. If Lee is correct, such Christians are serving Satan (and will surely share his fate).
Excuse me Ghost of a Duke. You have not read a book all th ...[text shortened]... , including did he totally exempt those under his own ministry, and the scope of the problem he saw.
Again, I do not want to reconsider the views expressed about Lee. I think he very clearly thought Catholics and Protestants were in an organization of Satan and that this was a mechanism to introduce his revised version of Christianity.
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29 Oct 19
5 edits
Your excessive reading of his work has only resulted in an intransigence.
Your avoidance of consistency is resulting in your intransigence.
If you insist that Lee condemns all in a situation influenced by God's enemy you have to admit:
1.) The Babylon the Great is taking all of God's people to eternal perdition.
2.) The young Christian widows in the churches under Timothy's care all went to eternal perdition.
3.) All the Christians in the church in Pergamos (dwelling where Satan's throne was) all go to eternal perdition.
4.) The "sick" believers in the church in Thyatira involved in "the deep things of Satan as they say" all go to perdition.
5.) The apostle Peter who Jesus rebuked once saying "Get behind me Satan!" went to eternal perdition.
6.) And all the world lying in the evil one as the apostle John wrote all go to eternal perdition.
You cannot make your special case for Witness Lee when I know he did not mean that.
So for the sake of twisting the meaning of his words there are you going to be consistent?
In addition I might add that the Apostle Paul said that he was once hindered by Satan so Paul too ends up in the lake of fire.
" .. we wanted to come to you, I Paul, ... yet Satan hindered us."
So and his apostolic team headed for Thessaloniki
all went to damnation by your thinking.
I might add that all the Christians that the apostle Peter warned them that Satan was seeking like a roaring lion to devour them, ALL went to eternal perdition.
"Your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking someone to devour." ( 1 Peter 5:8) .
I might add that the saints in the church in Smryna whom Jesus said - "Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that you may be tried ..." (Rev. 2:10) all have their destiny in eternal punishment.
And again the apostle Peter whom Jesus said Satan desired to sift him as wheat, went to perdition in spite of Jesus praying for him.
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has asked to have you all to sift you as wheat. But I have made petition concerning you that your faith would not fail ..." (Luke 22:31,32)
And last off all Jesus Christ Himself of whom it is said the devil left Him to return to Him latter, will go to the eternal punishment.
"And when the devil had concluded every temptation, he went away from Him until an opportune time." (Luke 4:13)
So if you refuse to drop that being attacked or deceived by the tactics of Satan means you are a Satan worshipper like Anton Levy and are destined to be condemned to the punishment he receives from God, then all these are examples of people lost forever.
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29 Oct 19
Again, I do not want to reconsider the views expressed about Lee.
Of course you do not want me to reconsider whether your interpretation of the quote means what you say it means.
I think he very clearly thought Catholics and Protestants were in an organization of Satan and that this was a mechanism to introduce his revised version of Christianity.
Before we proceed to whether Witness Lee included or excluded whole sale any under his own ministry and indeed himself, are you going to be consistent ?
Ie. "All under any involvement with Satan are his worshippers and destined to eternal perdition, and that including Christ Himself."
That is what you are trying to pawn off on us. And if there is a difference what is the basis of you NOT being consistent?
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29 Oct 19
@sonship saidYour strategy of trying to muddy the waters is not very effective. I am only concerned about what Lee himself has clearly said and has been quoted as saying. I even think you yourself, deep down, are perplexed by some of his expressed views (so much so that you even abandoned one of his books halfway through).
Again, I do not want to reconsider the views expressed about Lee.
Of course you do not want me to reconsider whether your interpretation of the quote means what you say it means.
[quote]
I think he very clearly thought Catholics and Protestants were in an organization of Satan and that this was a mechanism to introduce his revised version of Christia ...[text shortened]... rying to pawn off on us. And if there is a difference what is the basis of you NOT being consistent?
You enter this thread as a Witness Lee apologist saying 'look here, not over there. He might have said that, but he meant this.'
If his words stand up for themselves then there is no need to try and filter them through yourself.