There is no knowing Jesus without Paul

@FMF

You are way too presumptive about how this all may happen.

I consider that the pain of being in the presence of God with the realization that one has rejected Him might be LESS then the pain of sent off to escape from such light in a place of punishment.

It could be that the one rejecting such divine love will so hate themselves that the suffering is a comparable relief to get their mind off of the self hatred for spurning such eternal love.

I am speculating. But the I suspect that we really do not know how this will all play out. Some have said the lake of fire is the only escape from the greater agony of being in the presence of such love and light which the rebel has refused.

@philokalia said
You cannot understand this passage because you are not a member of a Church, but are just using your own finite resources. Your interpretation is wrong.

Tell me...

Is a man responsible for his own actions?

@sonship said
I am speculating. But the I suspect that we really do not know how this will all play out. Some have said the lake of fire is the only escape from the greater agony of being in the presence of such love and light which the rebel has refused.

@rajk999 said
Yes, the bible answers that question where is says that the wages of sin is death. The bible does not say that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell. It simply says that GOD DECIDES TO CAST CERTAIN PEOPLE THERE.

I thank God that Im not part of churches like yours. I would have shot the pastors and priests.

@fmf said
Yes. Of course. And one of those actions is NOT going to be sending myself to be tortured after I die in some kind of mechanism of supernatural vengeance that exists only in the imaginations of those who imagine it.

@philokalia said
But you see, you are already sending yourself to hell when you reject God, because you are failing to live up to the standards of goodness and fulfill your true purpose in existence.

@philokalia said
I would advise really seriously contemplating the purpose of existence and how to relate back to the world, and to God in Heaven.

@philokalia said
But you see, you are already sending yourself to hell when you reject God, because you are failing to live up to the standards of goodness and fulfill your true purpose in existence.

@fmf said
Only in your imagination.

And simply stating whatever it is you imagine about "goodness" and "failing" and "true purpose" is not, in and of itself, morally coherent.

@fmf said
It's interesting what you think I need to "live up to" something. In case you have missed it, sonship - for example - doesn't talk about people succeeding in or "failing to live up to the standards of goodness" when he talks about God - he talks instead about himself being irreversibly "saved" by his beliefs [i.e. what he thinks about himself and what he thinks about Jesus and Go ...[text shortened]... lved from having to do so as a result of being "saved" by stuff they think. It's an odd hodge podge.

@philokalia said
We cannot derive an ought from an is, and we cannot come to conclusions about the values that all people must have.

@philokalia said
I think that Sonship would agree that faith without works is dead.

@FMF
I usually write out the Bible verses by hand.
I get a double blessing from reading them as I look carefully and write them myself.

Occasionally when I want to refer to another version then the one on my desk, I go to Biblehub and copy and past like this:

King James Bible
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

New King James Version
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

@philokalia said
This is a funny expression:

"I dislike the doctrine of hell so much that I would shoot people."

I would expect these words from someone who likes to play tough guy on pedophile priests on the internet, even when they are nowhere near what the topic at hand is.

@philokalia said
I think that Sonship would agree that faith without works is dead.