To kill or not to kill: capital punishment

Originally posted by vistesd
I agree with your exegesis. (Although, I’m not sure that one can always assign “good reason” to “God-commanded” killings in the OT, at least not without reaching outside the text to do so—but that’s another matter.)

However, can state-authorized execution (capital punishment) ever be murder?

I don't think it is murder. It's more like a cure, so that society can be healed and continue. Our justice system isn't perfect but it works.

Originally posted by whodey
Again, I do not look at capital punishment as an act of vengence. I see it as an act of self preservation for the society in which the murderer resides. If it were vengence I would anticipate the person being killed much in the same way they killed their victim. As it stands now it is done humanly with as little discomfort as possible to the person being e I suppose you could place them in isolation but is this humane? What are your thoughts?

You are still taking a life, and a life which is at least (on your theistic view) capable of redemption at some point in the future.

And for you this is a question of how much it costs to lock someone up?

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]But I also believe that people must responsible for the decisions they make and must face the consequences no matter how the feel afterward.

Just to state it upfront: I am responsible for everything I think, feel, or do. That is an existential premise on which I operate.

But that also includes the extent to which I give people second chances, ...[text shortened]... I bear responsibility.

As the text has it: “As you measure, so will it be measured to you.”[/b]

Vistesd, I would like to say that I agree with you in that people can change including those who murder. Howver, who will be the judge and jury for such change? We do well enough proving they committed the crime. It reminds me of a woman in Texas who was found guilty of murdering someone even though she vehemently denied doing so at the time and was placed on death row. On death row, however, she became a Christian and by all outward appearances seemed to have changed. She even confeesed to the crime. An appeal was made to the governer for mercy but appeal after appeal was denied. Her attitude was interesting, however. She was in no way bitter and did not lash out at the governer pubilically but actually supported him not getting her off death row. She said that she was guilty of the crime even though she was repentant and deserved to die.

This leads me to a question I have for you. Can one be forgiven but still be expected to pay for their crimes in some form or fashion? It reminds me somewhat of David in the OT. He too murdered someone in order to get their wife. He too repented with his whole heart and was forgiven by God. However, there was still a price to pay so to speak, wasn't there?

Originally posted by Big Mac
But Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

Yes He did. You are correct, but much of it changed. God's people are not stoning homosexuals, nor adulters, etc. They are no longer required to see a high priest once a year to offer atonement for their sins with the blood of a goat or bull, etc. The law was good, but people were unable to follow it. The law was spiritual, people were carnal....Romans Chapter 6....

Originally posted by dottewell
You are still taking a life, and a life which is at least (on your theistic view) capable of redemption at some point in the future.

And for you this is a question of how much it costs to lock someone up?

This brings an interesting question to mind. Does being on death row increase the chances of the possibility of redemption or a change of heart for the murderer in question? If you were to tell me that I was going to die in 2 weeks, for whatever reason, the chances of me being reflective on my life overall, I think increases. Then again, if I knew that I were not going to die more than likely I would continue on the path I was headed without a second thought.

Originally posted by whodey
This brings an interesting question to mind. Does being on death row increase the chances of the possibility of redemption or a change of heart for the murderer in question? If you were to tell me that I was going to die in 2 weeks, for whatever reason, the chances of me being reflective on my life overall, I think increases. Then again, if I knew that I w ...[text shortened]... oing to die more than likely I would continue on the path I was headed without a second thought.

I think what increases is pure, animal fear.

This doesn't, of course, answer the question of what gives you the right to terminate a life (and one which is capable of redemption).

Originally posted by Big Mac
should governments be allowed to enforce capital punishment?
spiritually speaking, of course.
and, please provide grounds and warrants.

i am torn.
as a theist, which is a popular word on here, and as a xian theist to boot, i try to develop my social contracts and desires from the bible.

paul writes that the government is to carry the sword to defen ...[text shortened]... ave them do unto you.

prophets say that vengeance is god's. he will repay.

any thoughts?

Don't the 10 Commandments override actions by Biblical characters?
"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty black & white.

I don't think the Commandment reads
"Thou shalt not kill, except in circumstances whereby such (retaliatory) killing can reasonably be deemed justified for moral, socio-political or vengeance purposes by any individual, government, the military or non-state organisation, see sub-sections 10.(f), (g), (h) below"

Originally posted by dottewell
I think what increases is pure, animal fear.

This doesn't, of course, answer the question of what gives you the right to terminate a life (and one which is capable of redemption).

I only am given the right to terminate innocent life in the womb not a murderous soul that is a threat to the rest of society.

Originally posted by whodey
Again, I do not look at capital punishment as an act of vengence. I see it as an act of self preservation for the society in which the murderer resides. If it were vengence I would anticipate the person being killed much in the same way they killed their victim. As it stands now it is done humanly with as little discomfort as possible to the person being e I suppose you could place them in isolation but is this humane? What are your thoughts?

Vengeance - punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.


You ignore the issue of the execution of those who are innocent.

You place expediency above love.

The loving thing to do would be to try to help the individual see the error of his ways, but that is not what is in your heart.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Don't the 10 Commandments override actions by Biblical characters?
"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty black & white.

I don't think the Commandment reads
"Thou shalt not kill, except in circumstances whereby such (retaliatory) killing can reasonably be deemed justified for moral, socio-political or vengeance purposes by any individual, gover ...[text shortened]... ment, the military or non-state organisation, see sub-sections 10.(f), (g), (h) below"

Please continue reading the rest of the posts. "Kill" is an inaccurate translation of the word. The word is better translated murder, which does have a different connotation altogether.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't think it is murder. It's more like a cure, so that society can be healed and continue. Our justice system isn't perfect but it works.

I was thinking in a somewhat broader context, such as who decides, and how, what crimes can morally be punished by state execution. We have been assuming murder, but—when it was illegal in the Roman empire to be a Christian, capital punishment could be meted out; similarly in some of the heresy-hunts by Christians with state sanction.

Also, capital punishment is not limited to our justice system, or even a system with trial by jury.

Originally posted by whodey
Vistesd, I would like to say that I agree with you in that people can change including those who murder. Howver, who will be the judge and jury for such change? We do well enough proving they committed the crime. It reminds me of a woman in Texas who was found guilty of murdering someone even though she vehemently denied doing so at the time and was place ...[text shortened]... rt and was forgiven by God. However, there was still a price to pay so to speak, wasn't there?

Can one be forgiven but still be expected to pay for their crimes in some form or fashion?

Depending on that “in some form or fashion,” possibly. But that also depends on who’s doing the forgiving and who’s doing the punishing. In the sense of NT forgiveness (aphiemi and apoluo, which mean to release, to set free, to divorce) implies at least, I think, that if one is forgiven, the punishment cannot remain enduring—if it is the same person meting out both. In terms of this thread, of course, we’re talking about the state as an instrument of society.

If we followed the example of the David story, however, we would not inflict the physical punishment on the guilty part, but on someone they loved—so that the punishment for the guilty party would be the mental anguish...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes He did. You are correct, but much of it changed. God's people are not stoning homosexuals, nor adulters, etc. They are no longer required to see a high priest once a year to offer atonement for their sins with the blood of a goat or bull, etc. The law was good, but people were unable to follow it. The law was spiritual, people were carnal....Romans Chapter 6....

Yes, some of the law was clearly abrogated (dietary rules). This may be one of those cases where one needs to look behind the "letter" (of scripture,as well as the law)--or what the rabbis call the "garment of Torah" to the real Torah that lies underneath...

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Vengeance - punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.


You ignore the issue of the execution of those who are innocent.

You place expediency above love.

The loving thing to do would be to try to help the individual see the error of his ways, but that is not what is in your heart.

But I say to you that e ...[text shortened]... those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;

Must the concepts of punishment and love be at odds? I say no. However, vegence is God's and God's alone. Also, is punishment and vengence of equal nature? I say no. In my mind punishment is merely a deterent to keep them from repeating such acitivity as where vengence is causing them to suffer in similar fashion as they caused another to suffer.

As far as the forgiveness aspect of things, I would agree that if your brother does wrong you that you should forgive him. However, does this negate his legal responsibility in the society in which he lives? I think we are talking about two different things here. Are you suggesting that society should look the other way every time someone breaks a law or murders someone? You said yourself that you are in favor of putting such murderers in prison for life. What if the person says they are sorry and asks for the forgiveness of society? Should society forgive them and release them back into society.

Having said that, again, we are both talking about a "punishment" of some kind. In your scenerio we are discussing society locking them up together so they can abuse each other and live a pitifull existence. Is death any worse? You say yes, but I say I don't know. I guess it all depends on ones perspective. What I do know, however, is that to lock such murderers up for life is unrealistic or at least in today's world. I say that capital punishment is preferable to considering letting them go......at least as far as society is concerned.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Can one be forgiven but still be expected to pay for their crimes in some form or fashion?

Depending on that “in some form or fashion,” possibly. But that also depends on who’s doing the forgiving and who’s doing the punishing. In the sense of NT forgiveness (aphiemi and apoluo, which mean to release, to set free, to divorce) impli ...[text shortened]... on someone they loved—so that the punishment for the guilty party would be the mental anguish...[/b]

To give another example other than David, I would say that according to the Bible we all die because we have sinned. However, does this preclude us from being forgiven? No it does not. Here again we see that we can be forgiven even though we pay to some degree for our transgressions. Another example would be being sexually premiscuous. I could turn from my life style and ask for forgiveness but what if I contracted AIDS before doing so? Am I still forgiven? Yes, but my life will more than likely be shortened due to my previous indiscretions. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Chrsit our Lord.........at least according to Paul.