21 Apr 07
3 edits
I have somewhat had a revelation, here. For those of you Christians, think of it this way. We should follow Christ's example, right? And Christ gave everyone a second chance, right? So why should we hold back any sort of second chance (supporting and use of capital punishment) for criminals?
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21 Apr 07
Originally posted by Big MacExod 20:13
should governments be allowed to enforce capital punishment?
spiritually speaking, of course.
and, please provide grounds and warrants.
i am torn.
as a theist, which is a popular word on here, and as a xian theist to boot, i try to develop my social contracts and desires from the bible.
paul writes that the government is to carry the sword to defen ...[text shortened]... ave them do unto you.
prophets say that vengeance is god's. he will repay.
any thoughts?
13 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)
Exod 20:13
13 "You shall not murder.
(NKJ)
The NKJ has the more accurate translation. Kill and murder are two different words in english as well as Hebrew. The KJ has a poor translation here. God commanded killing of certain types of people throughout the OT and for good reason. They were people who were evil and could not be rehabilitated(nephalim). In the NT there is a different "dispensation" or administration and rules changed with the fulfillments that Christ accomplished. IE, no more sacrafices, etc. Killing is moral as self defense and capitol punishment. Murder is immoral.
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterI agree with your exegesis. (Although, I’m not sure that one can always assign “good reason” to “God-commanded” killings in the OT, at least not without reaching outside the text to do so—but that’s another matter.)
Exod 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)
Exod 20:13
13 "You shall not murder.
(NKJ)
The NKJ has the more accurate translation. Kill and murder are two different words in english as well as Hebrew. The KJ has a poor translation here. God commanded killing of certain types of people throughout the OT and for good reason. They were people who were ...[text shortened]... sacrafices, etc. Killing is moral as self defense and capitol punishment. Murder is immoral.
However, can state-authorized execution (capital punishment) ever be murder?
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by wittywonkaChrist certainly didn't give EVERYONE a second chance. Judas certainly didn't receive one. The millions who have died since then without ever even hearing the name of Christ didn't receive a second chance.
I have somewhat had a revelation, here. For those of you Christians, think of it this way. We should follow Christ's example, right? And Christ gave everyone a second chance, right? So why should we hold back any sort of second chance (supporting and use of capital punishment) for criminals?
Then again, we're not Christ. I have no problem with second chances. But I also believe that people must responsible for the decisions they make and must face the consequences no matter how the feel afterward.
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by checkbaiterBut Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
Exod 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
(KJV)
Exod 20:13
13 "You shall not murder.
(NKJ)
The NKJ has the more accurate translation. Kill and murder are two different words in english as well as Hebrew. The KJ has a poor translation here. God commanded killing of certain types of people throughout the OT and for good reason. They were people who were ...[text shortened]... sacrafices, etc. Killing is moral as self defense and capitol punishment. Murder is immoral.
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySeems like I have to explain this about once every six months.
I disagree. Life in prison is not cheaper, we stop paying shortly after
we put them to death.
Kelly
When one takes into account all the extra appeals a death sentence qualifies the accused for, it is *considerably* cheaper to simply lock him or her up for life than to continue the years of legal deliberations.
21 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Big MacChrist died for us ("us" meaning everyone) to forgive us of our sins...God allowed Jesus to die to give us all a second chance to live "good" lives.
Christ certainly didn't give EVERYONE a second chance. Judas certainly didn't receive one. The millions who have died since then without ever even hearing the name of Christ didn't receive a second chance.
Then again, we're not Christ. I have no problem with second chances. But I also believe that people must responsible for the decisions they make and must face the consequences no matter how the feel afterward.
Secondly, why doesn't life imprisonment work as well as capital punishment? I would think criminals are "facing their consequences" just fine in social isolation.
Thirdly, we should strive to live like Christ even if it is innately impossible due to sin. But if we only get one chance to get everything right, then how could anyone not go to hell, since we all sin?
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by Big MacBut I also believe that people must responsible for the decisions they make and must face the consequences no matter how the feel afterward.
Christ certainly didn't give EVERYONE a second chance. Judas certainly didn't receive one. The millions who have died since then without ever even hearing the name of Christ didn't receive a second chance.
Then again, we're not Christ. I have no problem with second chances. But I also believe that people must responsible for the decisions they make and must face the consequences no matter how the feel afterward.
Just to state it upfront: I am responsible for everything I think, feel, or do. That is an existential premise on which I operate.
But that also includes the extent to which I give people second chances, or do not. There have been people for whom I have sought to alleviate the consequences of their actions—for any number of reasons. And others for whom I have not. And for that, too, I bear responsibility.
As the text has it: “As you measure, so will it be measured to you.”
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by KellyJayIs there something that I did not explain? I told you about the man. I told you what he did (murder). I told you what he is doing now that is different from what he did before. I gave you a scriptural reference to back up my claim that his life today reflected the very things Jesus talked about.
You were talking about the Gospel being lived out, and I was asking
you about what you were talking about.
Kelly
The only thing we don't know is if josephw has done time in prison thus explaining his judgemental attitude.
21 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAgain, I do not look at capital punishment as an act of vengence. I see it as an act of self preservation for the society in which the murderer resides. If it were vengence I would anticipate the person being killed much in the same way they killed their victim. As it stands now it is done humanly with as little discomfort as possible to the person being executed. I also do not view all killing as "murder". For example, if you were a police officer and were forced into making a decision to kill someone or let that person kill another innocent person you would be forced to kill them. Although it would be undesirable to kill them it would not be murder! This is how I view capital punishment.
Evidently I wasn't specific enough. When I asked, "Do you believe that vengeance and murder will remain in the hearts of people once they are changed?", I was speaking of those who support capital punishment.
I favor life imprisonment as any enlightened individual would. Are you so ready to "cast the first stone"?
Now in terms of being enlightened and having "murder" and "vengence" remaining in ones heart, I suppose you would have to say that such men as Moses and Abraham had vengence and murder in their enlightened hearts because they endorsed capital punishment. Is this your position? It is my position that such men followed the law passed down to them by God to inact capital punishment for the preservation of a civilized society.
This brings us to modern day society. Here too we have the same decisions to make. Do we let murderers roam free at some point or do we lock them up for life or use capital punishment? I am for either, however, I think it highly impracticle to lock every murderer up for life due to the volume of prisoners and limited resources. The modern day prison system is somewhat of a joke. It is called rehabilitation even though no one is ever seems to be rehabilitated. In fact, in such an environment the chances of someone muredering another increases. It is an atmosphere of survival of the fittest in which many are much worse coming out than going in. They become less apart of the society the longer they stay in prison than when they entered the facility. Of coarse if you lock them up for life I suppose you do not have to worry about letting them back into society but as I said before this does not happen and most likely will never happen. As barbaric as the Mosaic laws seem to us, I think they may have had it right in that justice should be swift and to the point. Warehousing criminals does not seem to be working and, in fact, seems to be making things worse overall as well as being a huge burden financially on the society in which they committed such crimes.
As far as placing murderers in prison for life, what is your solution for protecting inmates from killing other inmates? I would think you have the same delimma with them as you would releasing them into society. I suppose you could place them in isolation but is this humane? What are your thoughts?
21 Apr 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadFor those who do not think that murder is such a big deal I would ask why then is capital punishment a big deal?
So whats so bad about murder?[/b]
It reminds me of Cain who slew his brother in Genesis. To God it was a big deal. In fact, he was singled out, marked, and a cast away for what he did. Then the society in which sprang from Cain became unruley and ended up destroying themselves. So what to do with a murderer? Cast them away for life or kill them? Either way it seems to be a loose/loose scenerio.