17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75Yes, but unfortunately truth, which is supposed to be a constant is acutally a variable. Everybody has their own interpretation.
When the truth is spoken by anyone it is a good thing..
So what I take as truth are the actual words of Christ. To me the message of Christ is clear and complete. Christ told us exactly what to believe and what to do .. no need to add to it.
17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Before the diversion to other points, I wish you would answer the four Yes or No questions with either Yes or No.
Well..I have to say I'm impresssed that you are admitting that Jesus, his son, was involved in the creation process. Does that possible mean that you think even a little that they are two seperate beings?
Anyway I have already commented that both Jesus and Satan are referred to as Gods in the Bible and the term having "Many God's" are used with false r as there is much info here.
I'm getting ready for work and will comment more soon...
If you would do that I will then comment on this above post.
Four Questions there Yes or No ? You then can elaborate or clarify if you need to.
======================================
Now in light of those three passages answer these questions:
"Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
Does either Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 prove that there is another God besides Jehovah ?
Yes or No ?
How would you answer Jehovah here:
"I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spreads out the earth (Who was with Me?) (Isa. 44:24)
Is your answer to that question asked by Jehovah that according to Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 another god was with Him?
Yes or No?
Third question:
If Jehovah says Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6)
Do you correct Jehovah here and inform Him that apart from Jehovah there was or is ANOTHER god based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16?
Yes or No?
Fourth:
When Jehovah says "I am the First and I am the Last" (Isa. 44:6) and Jesus Christ ALSO says "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17)
Do you then say, based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 , that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillAnyway the genuine Shema doctrine “Hear O Israel Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one” is clearly a description of God without the binding of another subject to Him in set descriptions. The Shema declares that the God of Israel is one in nature and one in being according Isaiah 45, and this interpretation is at least logical and understandable.
Before the diversion to other points, I wish you would answer the four [b]Yes or No questions with either Yes or No.
If you would do that I will then comment on this above post.
Four Questions there Yes or No ? You then can elaborate or clarify if you need to.
======================================
No ...[text shortened]... ws 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 , that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?[/b]
As far as I am concerned, according to the first Abrahamic religion the irrational doctrine of the Christian Trinity is false due to Deuteronomy 4:35, 4:39 and 6:4, I Kings 8:60, Isaiah 45:6, 45:18, 45:21-22 and 46:9, Joel 2:27 and Ecclesiastes 4:8.
Whevever you feel up to it I would love to hear your personal exegesis and interpretation regarding the Christian Trinity, jaywill
😵
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetleI have nothing to support darling. I simply explained in detail why the concept of the Christian Trinity is in my opinion irrational...
I have nothing to support darling. I simply explained in detail why the concept of the Christian Trinity is in my opinion irrational, and I already enjoy a fine conversation with Conrau K whilst jaywill, Galveston 75 and Rabbie enjoy theirs. And I am ready to readjust this opinion of mine in case any member of this forum could set out her/ his views in ...[text shortened]... arly that it is logical.
Obviously you are unable to do such a thing but this is fine with me😵
Well, sweetheart, you may think you have nothing to support, but that's what the conversation is about. You made several statements relative to a supposed commentary on the topic, but these statements are (thus far) wholly unsupported by anything... other than--- as you stated--- your opinion.
That's akin to declaring your opinion about, say, Bullwinkle the Moose, and then proceeding to wax inelegantly about the algorithm gun's impact on cancer detection. While your conclusions somewhat follow the line drawn by the meanderings, it is the meanderings themselves that are the problem: they are completely disconnected from the facts. Strawman argument.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetleWhat just makes no sense whatsoever is why an avowed atheist gives a rat's ass about any Christian doctrine. You've already rejected the most basic, entry-level message of the Gospel (for whatever personal reasons) and yet you consider yourself in a position to contemplate the deeper things of God?
Anyway the genuine Shema doctrine “Hear O Israel Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one” is clearly a description of God without the binding of another subject to Him in set descriptions. The Shema declares that the God of Israel is one in nature and one in being according Isaiah 45, and this interpretation is at least logical and understandable.
As far as ...[text shortened]... e to hear your personal exegesis and interpretation regarding the Christian Trinity, jaywill
😵
Start with basic math before asking for calculus.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by FreakyKBHHi, please accept the Noble beetles offer, he has given his own thoughts and ask that you do the same. Nor has he rejected the basic tenets of Christianity, for he outlined and mentioned the fall, why Christ came to fulfil the law and give his life as a propitiatory sacrifice, through the agency of love. Furthermore he has shown an understanding of and generously peppered his posts with thoughts and quotations from the early fathers of the church. This outburst is really unwarranted and it would be a better reflection if you addressed his points rather than Beetle playing the flute while you yourselves are refusing to dance!
What just makes no sense whatsoever is why an avowed atheist gives a rat's ass about any Christian doctrine. You've already rejected the most basic, entry-level message of the Gospel (for whatever personal reasons) and yet you consider yourself in a position to contemplate the deeper things of God?
Start with basic math before asking for calculus.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillAs I answered there are no other God's other then Jehovah in the truest sence. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were also God's, then the Father could not make that statement
Before the diversion to other points, I wish you would answer the four [b]Yes or No questions with either Yes or No.
If you would do that I will then comment on this above post.
Four Questions there Yes or No ? You then can elaborate or clarify if you need to.
======================================
No ...[text shortened]... ws 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 , that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?[/b]
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Firstborn of all creation" as well as the "First" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
And again Jehovah was the designer of all that we see. But according to the scriptures available to us, the only thing he directly created was his son Jesus. And according to the scriptures, Jesus created all other things with the direction of his Father. No different then and architect doing the designs of a building but a contractor doing the actual work. Hence Jesus is the "Master Worker."
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetle==========================
Anyway the genuine Shema doctrine “Hear O Israel Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one” is clearly a description of God without the binding of another subject to Him in set descriptions. The Shema declares that the God of Israel is one in nature and one in being according Isaiah 45, and this interpretation is at least logical and understandable.
As far as ...[text shortened]... e to hear your personal exegesis and interpretation regarding the Christian Trinity, jaywill
😵
Anyway the genuine Shema doctrine “Hear O Israel Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one” is clearly a description of God without the binding of another subject to Him in set descriptions. The Shema declares that the God of Israel is one in nature and one in being according Isaiah 45, and this interpretation is at least logical and understandable.
==============================
Aren't you an atheist ?
As an atheist what do you care about the Shema ? I do not understand WHY an atheist would be arguing with a Christian over the Shema.
Explain that one to me.
17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Would you take your explanation and specifically follow each one of these questions with either YES or NO. You may write an explanatory note underneath your response.
As I answered there are no other God's other then Jehovah in the truest sence. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were also God's, then the Father could not make that statement
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" becaus ding but a contractor doing the actual work. Hence Jesus is the "Master Worker."
I WANT TO SEE WITH YOUR EXPLANATION UNDERNEATH EITHER YES or NO IN EACH OF THE FOUR QUESTIONS.
==========================================
"Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
Does either Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 prove that there is another God besides Jehovah ?
Yes or No ?
============================================
====================================
"I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spreads out the earth (Who was with Me?) (Isa. 44:24)
Is your answer to that question asked by Jehovah that according to Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 another god was with Him?
Yes or No?
======================================
=====================================
If Jehovah says Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6)
Do you correct Jehovah here and inform Him that apart from Jehovah there was or is ANOTHER god based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16?
Yes or No?
===========================================
============================================
When Jehovah says "I am the First and I am the Last" (Isa. 44:6) and Jesus Christ ALSO says "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17)
Do you then say, based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 , that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?
===========================================
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillI would like to know why and how the Trinitarian Christians came to the conclusion that their doctrine is accurate although the main line of the first Abrahamic religion stands clearly against this idea. And I never thought that this conversation would be a taboo for an atheist😵
[b]==========================
Anyway the genuine Shema doctrine “Hear O Israel Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one” is clearly a description of God without the binding of another subject to Him in set descriptions. The Shema declares that the God of Israel is one in nature and one in being according Isaiah 45, and this interpretation is at least logica ...[text shortened]... WHY an atheist would be arguing with a Christian over the Shema.
Explain that one to me.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999I agree...
Yes, but unfortunately truth, which is supposed to be a constant is acutally a variable. Everybody has their own interpretation.
So what I take as truth are the actual words of Christ. To me the message of Christ is clear and complete. Christ told us exactly what to believe and what to do .. no need to add to it.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillI believe I just answered all the points in my last thread...Did you not read it?
Would you take your explanation and specifically follow each one of these questions with either [b]YES or NO. You may write an explanatory note underneath your response.
I WANT TO SEE WITH YOUR EXPLANATION UNDERNEATH EITHER YES or NO IN EACH OF THE FOUR QUESTIONS.
==========================================
"Thus says Jeh ...[text shortened]... Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?
===========================================[/b]
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75beautiful!
As I answered there are no other God's other then Jehovah in the truest sence. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were also God's, then the Father could not make that statement
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" becaus ...[text shortened]... ding but a contractor doing the actual work. Hence Jesus is the "Master Worker."