17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75===================================
I believe I just answered all the points in my last thread...Did you not read it?
I believe I just answered all the points in my last thread...Did you not read it?
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I read it.
And it still seems non-commital in some regards.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillSimple yes and no answers do not always answer the questions as you yourself know... So do none of those explinations seem resonable to you?
[b]===================================
I believe I just answered all the points in my last thread...Did you not read it?
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I read it.
And it still seems non-commital in some regards.[/b]
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75=========================================
Simple yes and no answers do not always answer the questions as you yourself know... So do none of those explinations seem resonable to you?
Simple yes and no answers do not always answer the questions as you yourself know... So do none of those explinations seem resonable to you?
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I allowed you to write any clarification you wished underneath your Yes or No.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillI explained all those yes and no questions to you. If you can't get the answers from that, then I don't know what else to say to you. I also find when ones just want a yes and no answer, it's usually to trick or trap with word play.
[b]=========================================
Simple yes and no answers do not always answer the questions as you yourself know... So do none of those explinations seem resonable to you?
=======================
I allowed you to write any clarification you wished underneath your Yes or No.[/b]
The Bible is very clear as to who Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Jay. Pray to Jehovah thru his son Jesus to help you see that because I don't see it happening with your understanding at this time.
I know if you were able to start completely over with no knowledge of the Bible and certianly no influance from pagan ideas, you as most others would never even come up with a concept of a trinity. It's not in the BIBLE!!!!!
17 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=================================
As I answered there are no other God's other then Jehovah in the truest sence. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were also God's, then the Father could not make that statement
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" becaus ding but a contractor doing the actual work. Hence Jesus is the "Master Worker."
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Firstborn of all creation" as well as the "First" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
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When Jehovah says "I am the First and I am the Last" (Isa. 44:6) and Jesus Christ ALSO says "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17)
Your answer is that there are TWO Firsts, one is Jehovah the First and the Other is the Savior Jesus Who is the OTHER First ?
So before the First there was the First?
And after the Last there is the Last?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillMy answer still stands from my first post:
[b]=================================
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Firstborn of all creation" as well as the "First" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
============== ...[text shortened]... before the First there was the First?
And after the Last there is the Last?
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Firstborn of all creation" as well as the "First" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75======================================
My answer still stands from my first post:
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Fir ...[text shortened]... t" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "Firstborn of all creation" as well as the "First" resurrected to heaven, and the "Last" because we will never need another saviour.
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Galveston, they CRUCIFIED Jesus Christ because He taught and LIVED as He and His Father were the same being.
With all His obeying of the Father, submitting to the Father, and all the things He said about His Father He was crucified because in the end He was teaching that He and the Father were one being.
You and Russell and Arius have cast in your lot with those who persecuted the Son of God for what He taught and what He testified to.
Can you prove to us that Jesus was persecuted because He taught that He was an angel - Michael ? Where ?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillPart of the reason they killed him is because like you, they thought he was saying he was God. So the misunderstandings of who he was is still going on today it seems.
[b]======================================
Looking at the context and who the scriptures are talking about, Jehovah and his son Jesus, they are by no means talking of the same being.
With Jehovah he is the "First" because he has always been. He is the "Last" because he will always be.
In the case of Jesus he is the "First" because he was the "First ...[text shortened]... hat Jesus was persecuted because He taught that He was an angel - Michael ? Where ?
Did not Jesus himself say the Father is greater then I am???????????????
What in your mind does that mean????????????
17 Dec 09
galveston,
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"I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spreads out the earth (Who was with Me?) (Isa. 44:24)
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So your answer is that Jehovah was not alone when He stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth ?
When He says "Who was with Me?" your reply would be that another created God (the one in John 1:1) was with Him ?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75===============================
Part of the reason they killed him is because like you, they thought he was saying he was God. So the misunderstandings of who he was is still going on today it seems.
Did not Jesus himself say the Father is greater then I am???????????????
What in your mind does that mean????????????
Part of the reason they killed him is because like you, they thought he was saying he was God. So the misunderstandings of who he was is still going on today it seems.
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No. I think He communicated to them quite well. They understood and they did not like what they understood.
"They said then to Him, Where is Your Father?
Jesus answered, You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also." (John 8:19)
Here is a man standing before them whom they can easily reach out and grab to stone to death. And what is He saying?
" ... if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
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Did not Jesus himself say the Father is greater then I am???????????????
What in your mind does that mean????????????
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YES YES Jesus did say the Father was greater than He. Yes.
It means that the Father is greater than He.
I have to run for a minute. Be back.
17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillSure.. Let's see how you can possibly get something out of this other then what it says.
[b]"The Father is greater than I."
Shall we talk about that ?[/b]
But I'll ask you the way you've been asking me. ( Yes or No ) Jehovah is greater then Jesus? How can the Father be greater then his Son in the trinity?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillAnd it is well known that Jesus did not always answer them with direct yes and no answers. He was telling them that he is the "Image, representative, Word, etc of his Father.
[b]===============================
Part of the reason they killed him is because like you, they thought he was saying he was God. So the misunderstandings of who he was is still going on today it seems.
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No. I think He communicated to them quite well. They understood and they did not like what they unde ...[text shortened]...
It means that the Father is greater than He.
I have to run for a minute. Be back.[/b]
17 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75===========================
Sure.. Let's see how you can possibly get something out of this other then what it says.
But I'll ask you the way you've been asking me. ( Yes or No ) Jehovah is greater then Jesus?
Sure.. Let's see how you can possibly get something out of this other then what it says.
But I'll ask you the way you've been asking me. ( Yes or No ) Jehovah is greater then Jesus?
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You are not asking the question at hand. The question is "Is the Father greater than Jesus?" ''
Jesus did not say "Jehovah is greater than Me" He said "The Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man. I already showed you that mingled was a biblical word from the typology of Leviticus chapter 2 - the meal offering.
In this dispensing of God into man for the mingling of divinity and humanity the Father is the Source. That is why the very word Father is used.
As perfect authority is expressed in the Father, perfect submission is expressed in the Son, by that time He was the incarnated God as a man. And perfect submission to authority was expressed in Him.
So God incarnate declares "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).
He had to be a man in order to die. He had to be God in order that the effectiveness of that death would have eternal efficacy.
He had to be a man in order to lay down His life. He had to be God that the giving of His life accomplishes an eternal redemption.
Why don't you just say "Lord Jesus, I love You."? The peace of Christ surpasses every man's understanding (Phil. 4:7). Didn't you read that ?
Did you know the presence of the Lord Jesus in your heart brings a peace that transcends every man's understanding ? That is what Paul wrote in Philippians 4:7.
Though the Triune God is so difficult to explain He is not difficult to enjoy and experience.