17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillOh my!!!! Does anybody know what he's talking about?
[b]===========================
Sure.. Let's see how you can possibly get something out of this other then what it says.
But I'll ask you the way you've been asking me. ( Yes or No ) Jehovah is greater then Jesus?
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You are not asking the question at hand. The question is "Is the Father greater than Je ...[text shortened]... e God is so difficult to explain He is not difficult to enjoy and experience.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillIts not difficult .. Christ is not God. They are as distinct and separate as a man is distinct and separate from a woman.
... Though the Triune God is so difficult to explain ...
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999But Rajj...your forgetting about the "Mingling Factor". God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and man according to Jay are all mingled together...Somehow? So it's really not a Trinity but a Quadinitry I think.
Its not difficult .. Christ is not God. They are as distinct and separate as a man is distinct and separate from a woman.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
18 Dec 09
If God is just one being, Then what about the scripture in Genesis that says,"Let Us make man in Our own image"?(Genesis 1:26 NKJV) God wouldn't be talking to His angels as the Bible says that nothing was created unless it was created by God.Also, what about John?For John 1:1-4 starts out by saying,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (NKJV) This would indicate at least two separate Beings. Maybe there are three separate Beings (Trinity) but they are one in purpose.
18 Dec 09
Originally posted by DonnypNot trying to put you off but all these scriptures have been discussed in the previous postings. Look back over the last few pages and it should be there. Thanks.
If God is just one being, Then what about the scripture in Genesis that says,"Let Us make man in Our own image"?(Genesis 1:26 NKJV) God wouldn't be talking to His angels as the Bible says that nothing was created unless it was created by God.Also, what about John?For John 1:1-4 starts out by saying,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.He ...[text shortened]... parate Beings. Maybe there are three separate Beings (Trinity) but they are one in purpose.
18 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Yep .. makes you wonder why the concept of the Triune God was not made abundabtly clear in the Bible. Jaywill keeps claiming its a difficult concept and maybe thats why Christ and Paul did not preach it. It was too difficult for them to understand. Thanks to Jaywill we now have the mysterious Triune God explained to us... 🙂
But Rajj...your forgetting about the "Mingling Factor". God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and man according to Jay are all mingled together...Somehow? So it's really not a Trinity but a Quadinitry I think.
18 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
Yep .. makes you wonder why the concept of the Triune God was not made abundabtly clear in the Bible. Jaywill keeps claiming its a difficult concept and maybe thats why Christ and Paul did not preach it. It was too difficult for them to understand. Thanks to Jaywill we now have the mysterious Triune God explained to us... 🙂
But with all the clear evidence that completely contradicts the trinity they still try to justify it and just accept this as a truth in the Bible.
It would seem to ones that no doubt love life and love their God would make sure what they believe is the truth as the Bible makes it clear that he, God , wants to be worshipped with truth. John 4:24. In fact the word Truth is in the Bible many, many times. It must be important to God.
18 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75I told you before that it is the Bible itself that speaks of "the mystery of God, Christ."
I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
But with all the clear evidence that completely contradicts the trinity they still try to justify it and just accept this as a truth in the Bible.
It would seem to ones th ...[text shortened]... hn 4:24. In fact the word Truth is in the Bible many, many times. It must be important to God.
This mock of yours is simply your pride and reliance on your human intelligence against God's revelation.
Everytime I hear you "Jehovah Witnesses" mock believers in the Triune God saying "Poor Christians. All you can say is the Trinity is a mystery" I know your pride is being manifested.
And the new comer who refered to John 1:1 is exactly right. It doesn't matter how many times it was discussed. The Word was with God and the Word was God.
We thank God that John wrote such a simple yet mysterious explanation of Christ - the incarnation of God in the flesh.
So you just go ahead and mock the people of faith as Ishmael also mocked Isaac. The word of God stands with our experience not with Russell's polythesim doctrine which sits more comfortably with his human reasoning.
18 Dec 09
Originally posted by DonnypYeah it was mentioned by I never saw an answer! So what say you? about this "Let us make man in Our image"?
If God is just one being, Then what about the scripture in Genesis that says,"Let Us make man in Our own image"?(Genesis 1:26 NKJV) God wouldn't be talking to His angels as the Bible says that nothing was created unless it was created by God.Also, what about John?For John 1:1-4 starts out by saying,"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.He ...[text shortened]... parate Beings. Maybe there are three separate Beings (Trinity) but they are one in purpose.
Manny
21 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75============================
I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
But with all the clear evidence that completely contradicts the trinity they still try to justify it and just accept this as a truth in the Bible.
It would seem to ones th ...[text shortened]... hn 4:24. In fact the word Truth is in the Bible many, many times. It must be important to God.
I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
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Maybe this is because you like many people think that the Trinity is for systematic theology. But God has to be triune to carry our His purpose of dispensing Himself into His chosen and redeemed people.
The Trinity is not only His inner being it is also His universal operation to dispense God into the people of God. And everything that is mentioned in the New Testament concerning God has to do with His dispensing His life into His people.
God's intention in His economy, His household government, is just to dispsense Himself into in His Divine Trinity into man. He is patiently carrying out this universal operation by His triune nature.
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But with all the clear evidence that completely contradicts the trinity they still try to justify it and just accept this as a truth in the Bible.
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You're blinded by Watchtower heresy. All the biblical evidence points to God's universal operation of distributing Himself into man. And the Trinity is the structure of the book of Ephesians as well as much of the New Testament.
There are three major sections to Ephesians chapter 1, and the Trinity is blessed (well spoken of):
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies."
1.) verses 3-6 the Father is blessed for His selection and predestination for the eternal purpose of God.
2.) verses 7-12 the Son is blessed in His redemption for the accomplishiment of God's eternal purpose.
3.) verses 13-14 the Spirit in His sealing and pledging for the application of God's accomplished purpose, is well spoken of.
The Trinity is the structure of this section of Ephesians. And each section ends with a praise to each respective operator of the Trinity.
1.) verses 3-6 on the Father - "To the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved." (v.6)
2.) verses 7-12 on the Son - "That we would be to the praise of His glory who first hoped in Christ." (v.12)
3.) verses 13-14 on the Spirit - "Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory."(v.14)
This threefold praise in chapter one reveals the glory of the Trinity in His operation to impart God into God's chosen and redeemed people.
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It would seem to ones that no doubt love life and love their God would make sure what they believe is the truth as the Bible makes it clear that he, God , wants to be worshipped with truth. John 4:24. In fact the word Truth is in the Bible many, many times. It must be important to God.
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You have not been "enlightened" to see the universal operation of the Triune God, patiently to dispense His life and nature into His people.
Paul's prayer was God would "enlighten all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is, which throughour the ages has been hidden in God, who created all things, in order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church, according to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The eternal purpose that was hidden in God, which He also made in Christ Jesus the Lord is to dispense God into man for the mingling of divinity with humanity.
Christ is not only the One carrying out the purpose. Christ is also the standard model and prototype of the purpose.
God's triune nature is for His universal operation carried out in great patience to distribute Himself into man to produce many brothers of the Firstborn Son of God.
You have been taught nothing about this. All you have been taught is that there is a great King God out there that should be feared and worshipped. But He is only to remain ABOVE and OUTSIDE of His little creature man.
I is not that this aspect of the relationship of God and man does not exist at all. Yes, we are God's little creatures. But you have not seen that God incarnated in Christ to be one of these little men. He is God / Man. And He is our Lord and Savior carrying out the distributing of the divine Being into man for the mingling of God and man.
This was His eternal purpose, not simply to be the great King with a kingdom on some pedestal, looked up to and feared. I do not say God is not to be feared or worshipped. But I do insist that this is probably the most superfiscial aaspect of the relationship.
God is a trinity in order to manifest Himself and then dispense Himself into man to make man God in life and nature but not in His Godhead. He came on a round trip. He did not come for a one way trip. He came to bring God into man and then to bring man into God.
23 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillYou claim repeatedly that the Christian Trinity is a “divine mystery”, so I am free to conclude that one cannot neither prove logically the existence of this mystery nor justify logically this metaphysic belief of that religious doctrine, for regarding this matter the science is useless and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations.
[b]============================
I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
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Maybe this is because you like many people think that the Trinity is for systematic the ...[text shortened]... e way trip. He came to bring God into man and then to bring man into God.[/b]
These attempts are vulgar Platonism -and I cannot understand why one tries repeatedly to offer (seemingly) rational explanations regarding a metaphysic belief like the Christian Trinity. I will justify my thesis that your explanation (an explanation based on Paul's vulgar Platonism, that is) quoting Symposium 202a (Socrates recalls Diotima’s metaphysic explanation regarding the nature of Eros, my translation):
“Avoid blasphemy” she replied; “or do you think that whatever is not beautiful is necessarily ugly?” “Of course”. “So whatever is not wise is it necessarily stupid? Haven’t you notice that between wisdom and stupidity there is a point in the middle?” “What is that?” “It is the clear view without the ability to have it logically justified. You ignore” she said “that this is neither science (how would be ever possible to be science something that cannot be logically proven?), nor ignorance (since it copes with the reality how could it be ignorance?). Therefore this specific clear view is a point between phronesis and stupidity”. “Fair enough” I replied.
Clear View Without The Ability To Have It Logically Justified, jaywill. This way Plato introduced to the West the value of the method that he learned from the East, the value of the method the Eastern philosophers recognize as “conceptual and non-conceptual awareness” (the finest description of the act of meditation). And Paul enters vulgar Platonism because he imitates Plato’s approach during his efforts to convince the people that his irrational metaphysic religious belief has a rational explanation. And why Paul shouldn’t act that way? It is quite logical to conclude that, since Plato was quite respectful although his metaphysic approach stands beyond logical reasoning and is under holistic attack by Aristotle, then one well versed in the Platonist Trinity could also preach his religious belief, the Christian Trinity, using the same functional way and the same method in order to bring up a reformed doctrine with the same success.
In fact some were amazed like the Corinthians -and some were not, for one because in their Agora they had for centuries the chance to talk about any kind of religious and philosophical and metaphysic and political doctrines and, for two, because they detested proselytism.
OK, your conclusion is that "God came on a round trip". I am also aware of the Egg Case and of the WaterMelon Case. No problem. We agree that God can do whatever s/he wants and be whatever s/he wants to be, and probably we agree that for the time being there is no scientific find and evidence that backs up the existence of the so called God.
Feel free to believe that there are no other Clear Views than your personal Clear View due to different hermeneutics -hermeneutics that they are at least as …logical as yours
😵
23 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetle... and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations.
You claim repeatedly that the Christian Trinity is a “divine mystery”, so I am free to conclude that one cannot neither prove logically the existence of this mystery nor justify logically this metaphysic belief of that religious doctrine, for regarding this matter the science is useless and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations. ...[text shortened]... w due to different hermeneutics -hermeneutics that they are at least as …logical as yours
😵
For the carnal man, there is no greater mystery than God. He knows that a God exists, but he cannot see Him, cannot bridge the gap between himself and Him.
And then silly modern man wishes to bring his telescope and find His dwelling place?
In order for man to know anything beyond the general revelation (of God's existence), divine revelation is required. Not an increase in science, logic, reason, et al. Nothing wrong with any of man's mundane endeavors; they're simply the wrong tool for the job.
When the Lord Jesus Christ was on the planet, science was applied to Him (observed, tested, attempted to be shown false) and science could only conclude that He existed, He acted in ways inexplicable, could not be shown to be false. But here comes modern man to claim better tools would have done the job.
When He returns--- if He permits--- perhaps He will humor those doubting Thomas' of the day and maybe get on the treadmill for a few more tests, or provide some party favors. Something tells me His agenda is going to be something other than aligning Himself to the standards of a few techno-geeks, or others who consider their yardsticks the definitive measure of all things true... which, paradoxically doesn't even exist in their view!
Maybe I'm wrong.
Your arrogance in throwing petty insults toward Paul (one of the greatest minds in the ancient world) is nearly laughable. A dime-store philosopher/sophist sitting in judgment on one of the brightest stars to shine forth from the dazzling brilliance of SPQR.
Precious.
23 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillPearls, meet swine.
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I've heard all my life ones finally admit that the trinity is a mystery in the end. Usually most don't even try but the ones that give it a shot always end up with the same answer.
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Maybe this is because you like many people think that the Trinity is for systematic theolo ...[text shortened]... e way trip. He came to bring God into man and then to bring man into God.[/b]
23 Dec 09
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSince when a Chosen of your caliber is ensured that free thinking became again the synonym of arrogance?
[b]... and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations.
For the carnal man, there is no greater mystery than God. He knows that a God exists, but he cannot see Him, cannot bridge the gap between himself and Him.
And then silly modern man wishes to bring his telescope and find His dwelling place?
In order for man to know anyth ...[text shortened]... e of the brightest stars to shine forth from the dazzling brilliance of SPQR.
Precious.[/b]
Save kisses to your beloved Cotton Mather -how many stones were used back then for Giles Cory’s peine forte et dure?
😵
23 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetle===============================
You claim repeatedly that the Christian Trinity is a “divine mystery”, so I am free to conclude that one cannot neither prove logically the existence of this mystery nor justify logically this metaphysic belief of that religious doctrine, for regarding this matter the science is useless and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations. ...[text shortened]... w due to different hermeneutics -hermeneutics that they are at least as …logical as yours
😵
You claim repeatedly that the Christian Trinity is a “divine mystery”, so I am free to conclude that one cannot neither prove logically the existence of this mystery nor justify logically this metaphysic belief of that religious doctrine, for regarding this matter the science is useless and at the same time nothing in reality backs up your explanations.
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The apostle who was used by God to write 13 or so books of the 27 New Testament books, told us of the divine mystery.
However he did not stop there. He spent much more space and time to help us experience and enjoy Christ as life.
So I will repeat what I have often said. That the Triune God is said to be a mystery does NOT mean the He cannot be experienced, enjoyed, and partaken of.
I'm puzzled why this presents such a problem to some people. Even in the natural realm there are things which are mysterious yet we experience them for life.
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These attempts are vulgar Platonism -and I cannot understand why one tries repeatedly to offer (seemingly) rational explanations regarding a metaphysic belief like the Christian Trinity.
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Yes, we do attempt to explain the operation of the Triune God. I usually do so with the warning that human language has it limitation.
Faith to come forward to God is very interesting. It leaves man with nothing to boast in. What I see in your complaint is human pride which disdains experiencing God through faith.
IF you were more humble you would realize that, science, as wonderful a tool as it is, cannot prove very basic things to an absolute degree.
I think what does not validate your pride you call "vulgar".
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I will justify my thesis that your explanation (an explanation based on Paul's vulgar Platonism, that is) quoting Symposium 202a (Socrates recalls Diotima’s metaphysic explanation regarding the nature of Eros, my translation):
“Avoid blasphemy” she replied; “or do you think that whatever is not beautiful is necessarily ugly?” “Of course”. “So whatever is not wise is it necessarily stupid? Haven’t you notice that between wisdom and stupidity there is a point in the middle?” “What is that?” “It is the clear view without the ability to have it logically justified. You ignore” she said “that this is neither science (how would be ever possible to be science something that cannot be logically proven?), nor ignorance (since it copes with the reality how could it be ignorance?). Therefore this specific clear view is a point between phronesis and stupidity”. “Fair enough” I replied.
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That is interesting. But what separates a man from the experience of God is his sins. It is nothing so intriguing as your philosophy. It is your sins which have caused an insulation between you and God.
The good news is literally that Christ has made provision for the removal of that obstacle.
It is your sins with the real guilt associated with them, which makes God not real to you. The Triune God has operated to deal with the problem of your sins that you could come forward to the experience and enjoyment of God.
Yours sins is the barrier. Your sins is the wall. You don't need more Socrates and Plato. You need to ask Christ to cleanse you of your sins that you may have free communion with the Divine Person of the Triune God.
I am sorry that it is not something more interesting or intriguing as a topic of discussion. God is not real to you because your sins have made a separation which can be removed by faith in the crucified and resurrected Son of God for your sins.
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Clear View Without The Ability To Have It Logically Justified, jaywill. This way Plato introduced to the West the value of the method that he learned from the East, the value of the method the Eastern philosophers recognize as “conceptual and non-conceptual awareness” (the finest description of the act of meditation). And Paul enters vulgar Platonism because he imitates Plato’s approach during his efforts to convince the people that his irrational metaphysic religious belief has a rational explanation. And why Paul shouldn’t act that way? It is quite logical to conclude that, since Plato was quite respectful although his metaphysic approach stands beyond logical reasoning and is under holistic attack by Aristotle, then one well versed in the Platonist Trinity could also preach his religious belief, the Christian Trinity, using the same functional way and the same method in order to bring up a reformed doctrine with the same success.
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This is all very interesting. But if I were you and I wanted to experience the Triune God I would put these lofty thoughts aside for awhile.
I would agree with God that I have sinned in many things. And I would ask that the blood of Jesus Christ would cleanse me of the wound and stain on my character left my my many sins.
If you believe in the Jesus Christ in this way --- God will become intimately real within you. No one will ever be able to take that intimate fellowship with your Heavenly Father away.
It is good to have all kinds of education. But the real guilt of your real sins must be washed away in the blood of Jesus. And this is mysterious. But it is effective to draw us close to commune with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
We first need forgiveness so that the Triune God can begin to dispense His life into our life. I don't back down on anything I said about the Trinity.
But part of the operation of this mysterious Triune God was to provide the redemptive blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all of our sins.
Once the obstacle of the guilt of our sins is dealt with there is no problem to our sensing the reality of Christ and of God.
If you don't feel convicted about your sins and you want to drown yourself in Greek intellectual thought, you may feel a prideful security for a temporary time.
Opening the Bible, letting it ascend above you, and shine down on your life will expose where you sinned and are cut off from fellowship with the holy and righteous God. But He loves you and died to remove that obstacle of your sins.
It took all Three - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to deal with the problem of your sins. You should feel quite special. The Trinity energized Himself to operate His economy of love and redemption, to draw you into God and grant to you the gift of eternal life - a life to be enjoyed now and through eternity.