Spirituality
23 May 12
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by karoly aczelDo you realize it is a sin to follow after other gods?
Thats because we (atheists,'non YEC' christians and the other religions), who have been posting on this site in the last 2-3 years have heard this argument (sometimes differently put,but essentially the same message), over and over again.
"Tough Love" ? What do you know about tough love? Or do you mean ''drilling" someone until they come to your point of view.
I have seen one or 2 people get converted on the spot
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23 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsHow do you know that?
The Holy Bible says if you believe in God and resist the devil that he will flee from you. You don't believe in God or the devil, so how can you resist him. You are a sitting duck.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Satan could be affecting your mind and making you think that.
It could be that reading the bible opens your mind to satan.
How could you tell?
All satan has to do is pretend to be god and you would do or agree with anything he says.
Your gullibility makes you a sitting duck for any con artist of any stripe.
Supernatural or otherwise.
Your suggestion that satan can influence minds is effectively identical to Descartes proposed
evil demons that can make you perceive anything they want and alter your mind and perceptions
any way they want and could indeed be making up everything you experience meaning the
entire world and everyone in it is an illusion.
If you believe in the existence of satan and believe he has such powers there is no possible way
for you to know ANYTHING about the world (including anything and everything written in any book)
or any experience you have had, or have ever had. Everything could be an illusion.
In such a scenario there is no way for you to know if anything is true or not, real or not.
So if you try to dismiss my view or anyone else's view as being defective because satan has got to
us you are invoking a being who could just as easily (and according to you with more cause) affect
your mind. Why would satan be influencing us? We already don't believe in god.
If we can't be trusted 'because of satan' than neither can you.
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23 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsA sin is a crime against god.
Do you realize it is a sin to follow after other gods?
Leaving aside for a moment how you could possibly commit a crime against an infinite omnipotent immortal god...
If you don't believe in god, why would you care about committing crimes against that god?
Telling an atheist (or someone differently theistic) that something is a sin is spectacularly stupid and pointless.
We don't care, your god doesn't exist.
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by googlefudge
A sin is a crime against god.
Leaving aside for a moment how you could possibly commit a crime against an infinite omnipotent immortal god...
If you don't believe in god, why would you care about committing crimes against that god?
Telling an atheist (or someone differently theistic) that something is a sin is spectacularly stupid and pointless.
We don't care, your god doesn't exist.
A sin is a crime against god.
So if I clunk you in the head in the alley and steal your wallot, that is ok ?
I mean it wasn't against Zeus or Thor. So it is not a sin against a god.
Its not a sin at all ?
Or you want to call it someting ELSE ??
Okay. Give it another name. Call it FOOBAR,
I committed a foobar against poor old you.
Right ?
If there is an ultimate Judge of all actions, it is a foobar that this Judge must call me to account for someday.
No?
Suppose I appear before a civic judge for my having clobbered you in the head and stolen your money. Now I say to the judge -
"What do YOU care ? I didn't do anything against YOU. "
Do you think an argument like that will get me acquitted ?
Now, there are sins (oops, I mean foobars) which are hidden. I can do you dirt and no one knows. I damage you but you don't know that you have been damaged. It is a secret. It is a secret except God saw it.
Do you think only seen offenses are worthy of being accounted for but not secret and unseen ones ? That's not the universe I live in. Unseen foobars, sneaky foobars, stealthful foobars, hidden foobars ... these also must come to justice.
If I come before God do you think I can reason - "Yes I did do googlefudge badly. But he never really knew what I did. And it wasn't against YOU. So what's the difference ?"
There is accounting for your wrongs against others.
There is accounting for wrongs against you as well.
They need not seem to be against God.
As the ultimate one to whom all are accountable there are still offenses to be dealt with.
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23 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillWell I don't have a 'wallot' so you can't steal it anyway.A sin is a crime against god.
So if I clunk you in the head in the alley and steal your wallot, that is ok ?
I mean it wasn't against Zeus or Thor. So it is not a sin against a god.
Its not a sin at all ?
Or you want to call it someting ELSE ??
Okay. Give it another name. Call it FOOBAR,
I committed a foobar against poo ...[text shortened]... he ultimate one to whom all are accountable there are still offenses to be dealt with.
What you are doing here is being intentionally thick.
I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.
These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to comply
with any instruction they give out on a whim. (despite their failing to actually convincingly demonstrate
their own existence or provide any clear means of determining what their will was)
This is entirely separate from concepts of morality and of concepts of law and justice.
If you ask if something is 'wrong' then you are asking a question of morals.
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with sin.
Theists often confuse the two ideas, claiming that it is immoral to commit a sin.
However that could only possibly be true if you come down on the wrong side of the Euthyphro dilemma.
Your god is not, and cannot be, the source of morality even if he did exist.
Thus following a particular command of god (or failing to do so) can be judged as moral or not independent
of the fact of god commanding it.
Sin or not makes no odds to moral or not.
And plenty of 'sins' are patently not immoral, and following many of gods commandments IS patently immoral.
And I have explained this many times on these forums, as well as talked at length about secular morality.
As a side note, Morality is about what you do and what consequence's those actions have.
If you cause me harm even without me knowing that you had done so then that is immoral, and
depending on the harm also possibly illegal as well.
23 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by googlefudgeYou call me thick. You have absolutely jury rigged your definition of sin to make it have nothing to do with morality between man and man.
Well I don't have a 'wallot' so you can't steal it anyway.
What you are doing here is being intentionally thick.
I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.
These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to co one so then that is immoral, and
depending on the harm also possibly illegal as well.
Your feeble jury rigged and selective strawman has nothing to do with how the Bible communicates the effect of sin.
And now all I expect you to say is, well, you don't care what the Bible says.
The THICK one is you!
It was downhill from the explanation that you don't have a wallot anyway.
Originally posted by googlefudge
Well I don't have a 'wallot' so you can't steal it anyway.
What you are doing here is being intentionally thick.
I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.
These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to co one so then that is immoral, and
depending on the harm also possibly illegal as well.
I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.
These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to comply
with any instruction they give out on a whim. (despite their failing to actually convincingly demonstrate
their own existence or provide any clear means of determining what their will was)
This is entirely separate from concepts of morality and of concepts of law and justice.
What you are talking about is your strawman argument definition.
"If your brother SINS against you ..." is part of the usage of the Bible's treatment of the subject.
So it is not only an action of worshippers against their Deity.
It is also the action of perfectly non-worshippers, indifferent, against their fellow man.
That's the aspect which you selectlively try to remove from the concept.
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US" .
Both God and man are involved. Whether this is your God or not your God is irrelevant. And you disclaiming God doesn't make your sin a non-sin.
23 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillsin in the bible is always used in context of transgression against biblegod's laws, hence the statements made by googlefude concerning:
[quote] I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.
These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to comply
with any instruction they give out on a whim. (despite their failing to actually convincingly demonstrate
the ...[text shortened]... d or not your God is irrelevant. And you disclaiming God doesn't make your sin a non-sin.
...(despite their [the gods] failing to actually convincingly demonstrate
their own existence or provide any clear means of determining what their will was)
This is entirely separate from concepts of morality and of concepts of law and justice.
remains entirely relevant, and true.