True Age of the Earth

Originally posted by sonhouse
I enjoy being a Tare.

Yeah, you must! 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Remember you will be judged by your own words. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Well that's good because i wouldn't want to be judged by anyone else's.

Originally posted by Suzianne
That's a lot of hoops to jump through just so you can sleep at night.

And yet, strangely, you consider yourself more free than Christians.

Originally posted by GoogleFudge
Well I don't have a 'wallot' so you can't steal it anyway.


What you are doing here is being intentionally thick.


I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.

These crimes can include things such as not believing in the aforementioned gods or failing to comply
with any instruction they give out on a whim. (despite their failing to actually convincingly demonstrate
their own existence or provide any clear means of determining what their will was)

This is entirely separate from concepts of morality and of concepts of law and justice.

If you ask if something is 'wrong' then you are asking a question of morals.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with sin.

Theists often confuse the two ideas, claiming that it is immoral to commit a sin.

However that could only possibly be true if you come down on the wrong side of the Euthyphro dilemma.

Your god is not, and cannot be, the source of morality even if he did exist.

Thus following a particular command of god (or failing to do so) can be judged as moral or not independent
of the fact of god commanding it.

Sin or not makes no odds to moral or not.

And plenty of 'sins' are patently not immoral, and following many of gods commandments IS patently immoral.


And I have explained this many times on these forums, as well as talked at length about secular morality.




As a side note, Morality is about what you do and what consequence's those actions have.
If you cause me harm even without me knowing that you had done so then that is immoral, and
depending on the harm also possibly illegal as well.

[quote]Originally posted by Suzianne
That's a lot of hoops to jump through just so you can sleep at night.

And yet, strangely, you consider yourself more free than Christians.

[/quote]


This response puzzles me.

It doesn't bear any relation to my experience of life or reality, or bare any resemblance to my thoughts or
thought processes.


I think that what we have here is a failure to understand one another's view point.


I certainly don't have any trouble getting to sleep at night... At least not due to any moral quandaries or worrying
that I might be wrong about there not being a god and worrying about going to hell, I do get kept up by it being
too hot on occasions but that's not really what you meant.

There are too things that I think you are misunderstanding about me and how I think (and I suspect this applies
broadly to many if not most atheists).

First, I don't spend any time worrying if the bible god exists and whether I am going to hell in exactly the same
way that I don't spend any time worrying if Thor exists and whether or not I can go to Valhalla (which sounds a
damn site
more fun than your heaven does).

I have never believed in bible god, and I don't have in me the slightest remotest doubt as to that gods
non-existence.

Thus I do not care in the slightest what 'commandments' god has supposedly issued and also don't care in the
slightest about breaking those commandments (ie committing a sin).

I do however care about morality and doing good. (why is irrelevant for the moment I am just going to state
as fact for the purposes of this discussion that I do care about morality quite deeply)

I follow my moral code as closely as possible and where that moral code happens to agree with the so called
commandments of god then I will follow those commandments. Not because they are commandments of god,
but because my moral code indicates that this is the right and good course of action.

Where my moral code diverges from or contradicts the commandments of your god (or any other) I follow my
moral code and utterly ignore your commandments (this is assuming that I actually know what the commandment
is because I have in no way memorised all 613 of them).

Now I wouldn't consider it moral to follow the commandments of your god even if I did think you god existed, for
reasons I have explained any number of times, but that is irrelevant to how I feel and live generally because I
don't for one second actually think your god exists.

So I am not 'jumping through' any hoops to do anything.
Claiming that I am just doesn't make sense.

I don't believe in god (any gods). Why should I be even remotely interested in any way with what people claim
that these imaginary boogie men have commanded?

Whether you agree with my lack of belief in gods or not, you should be able to see that GIVEN that I don't believe
I am not going to give a damn what people claim a god has said or commanded.




The other thing that I think is a major stumbling block is that theists use theism as their starting point.

A theists religion is (allegedly) their source of morality, the meaning of their existence, often the explanation of
how everything came to be here, and sometimes even the source of all knowledge.

It is the source, the starting point, the beginning.


And so when a theist comes across an atheist, they see that in the place where the theist has the source of
everything they care about and the foundation of their world view, the atheist has a hole. A god shaped hole. 😉

Because atheism doesn't have any of that, atheism is simply the position that you don't have a belief in the
existence of gods.

There is no dogma, and not meaning of life or source of morality there.

Which is why theists often claim that atheists must have no morals or be evil or think that asking what the
meaning of life is as a 'gotcha question'.


But atheism isn't a starting point, it's an end point.

Atheism is the result of something else, which can vary from person to person.

But it usually results from one form of skepticism or another.


The things that provide things like a moral code and any meaning of life or anything else that a theist thinks
they get from their religion atheists get somewhere else. And it varies from atheist to atheist.



So when you try to make assumptions about how I or any other atheist 'gets to sleep at night' you need to
consider how we actually think and what we actually believe and not what you think we think or believe.

Which means actually asking us rather than assuming what you might think in our position.




We don't fear god wrath or judgement or heaven or hell because they simply don't exist.
We have no belief in any of them.



So when I explain that SIN is not a concept we have any truck with I am not contorting myself to try to justify my
position or point of view.

I am simply saying the blindingly obvious conclusion that nobody who doesn't believe in the existence of a god is
going to care what that god is supposed to have commanded.



As for considering myself 'more free' than a Christian...

I really don't know what you mean.

I am not required to believe anything without evidence, or do anything without a justifying reason.

However the bounds of reality and logic might be construed to be more constricting than whatever fantasies you
concoct.

I require my beliefs and actions to conform to reality and logic (as much as humanly possible) and I think my moral
code is far more strongly enforced than yours, because you can commit any crime you like bar one and be forgiven
and let into heaven.

The only 'SIN' you can't commit and get into heaven is not believe in god. It says so clearly in your very own bible.

There is no get out of jail free card in my moral system.

There is nothing I get to make up because I would prefer reality to be that way.

Reality is the way the evidence says it is. Period.

If you don't like that then it's just tough.


On the other hand your religion, like many others, unreasonably restricts behaviours that have no business being restricted.
Telling people who they can and can't love for no reason at all.

In that sense then I am more free.

I don't have these idiotic restrictions on me.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Demons can possess anyone who is weak in their faith. There are a LOT of Christians who are weak in their faith.

Those with NO faith are just easier targets.

And the evidence you have to back up this assertion of knowledge is....?

There is no way you can possibly know this.

Because if you accept the existence of beings that can 'posses you' and make you think
anything they want then you have no means of proving that what you think isn't something
that they want you to think.

There is no more reason to suppose that these demons didn't invent the idea of god for
some nefarious scheme of their own than there is to believe that they try to stop people
from believing in god. (and which god, there are lots).

Originally posted by googlefudge
[quote]Originally posted by GoogleFudge
[b]Well I don't have a 'wallot' so you can't steal it anyway.


What you are doing here is being intentionally thick.


I was talking about SIN which is an idiotic and perverse religious concept that involves committing
a crime against a god or gods.

These crimes can include things such as not bel
I don't have these idiotic restrictions on me.

God is like a Judge in a court of law. What the judge says is law regardless of your opinion on the matter. So you just need to learn to live with it and understand it if you can. I don't give you much hope in that regard, numbnuts!
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
God is like a Judge in a court of law. What the judge says is law regardless of your opinion on the matter. So you just need to learn to live with it and understand it if you can. I don't give you much hope in that regard, numbnuts!
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Ok well lets go with this analogy.

If I decide I don't like the laws of this country, I can make a case for having them changed
and try to get support for such a change both from the public at large and from politicians.

This goes on all the time, and laws are frequently changed and updated if found not to
work properly. (not often enough but that's a different story)

There is a requirement in a democratic society for the laws to have at least the tacit support
of the population.

If it gets too bad you can even have a revolution and overthrow the government and replace it.
( I am sure you have heard of such things)

Also, if a judge makes a ruling I disagree with I may well be able to appeal to a higher judge, and
potentially argue that the ruling is in conflict with other rulings or laws and have that ruling changed.

And last but not least.

I can also, If I don't like the laws of a country, leave it and go some place else where the
laws are different and more to my liking.


I can chose not to belong to a country if I don't like it's laws or the way they are enforced.

Also those laws also protect me, in that while I am prohibited by those laws from taking unreasonable
advantage of or harming other people those laws also stop others (including the government) from
doing harm or taking advantage of me. And societies social contract is that you accept the loss of certain
freedoms in return for safety and security and a fair society.



However...

According to you, your god is not bound by his laws so they don't protect me from him.
I get no advantage or benefit to following these laws.
I get no say in what the laws are.
I get no option of opting out of these laws.
I get no choice.

I never signed up for this and never will.

Your god apparently gets to just impose these laws on everyone because he's the biggest most powerful
bully around and nobody can stop him.


Your god is the very thing we created laws to defend against.

Might makes right.

It doesn't.



Your god is absolutely NOTHING like a judge in a court of law (in any civilised country, I appreciate that you
don't have the benefit of living in a civilised country which might be why you got this mixed up).


However there is something more important than any of this.



Your god does not exist to judge anything.




Before I, or anyone else, is going to, or should, care what your god supposedly says you MUST first prove to OUR
satisfaction that your god actually exists AND that you know what that god says.

You have not done that.

Nobody has done that.

Ever.


Till then Atheism.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Ok well lets go with this analogy.

If I decide I don't like the laws of this country, I can make a case for having them changed
and try to get support for such a change both from the public at large and from politicians.

This goes on all the time, and laws are frequently changed and updated if found not to
work properly. (not often enough but t ...[text shortened]... s.

You have not done that.

Nobody has done that.

Ever.


Till then Atheism.

A revolution does not always work and the grass is not always greener in some far away country. So you better learn the laws of the Kingdom of God and try to work the system for your benefit. As I have been telling you all along, that's the best way to go. You may not like it in Hell for I have heard that it is not a paradise. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
A revolution does not always work and the grass is not always greener in some far away country. So you better learn the laws of the Kingdom of God and try to work the system for your benefit. As I have been telling you all along, that's the best way to go. You may not like it in Hell for I have heard that it is not a paradise. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Way to fail to deal with any of my points.

And your version of heaven sounds worse than your version of hell so the worst thing your god could do to me is threaten me with heaven.

Originally posted by RJHinds
God is like a Judge in a court of law. What the judge says is law regardless of your opinion on the matter. So you just need to learn to live with it and understand it if you can. I don't give you much hope in that regard, numbnuts!
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!

Well GF did a great job of smashing your analogy but I'll be kinder and say that its great!

I'd just like to extend it a little -

God is like a judge in a court of law. What the judge says is law regardless of your opinion on the matter. And if you break the law you are set free (but threatened with punishment later). The judge is totally powerless - never does a thing - apart from scaring some of the accused.

In fact this judge is pointless, existing only in the minds of the morally bankrupt to give them a reason to be "good".

So RJHinds, despite your eloquent rebuttal of GF's post, I find myself not worrying about your judge's laws or judgements. Think I'll just carry on sinning.

hell2uyah! 😏

Originally posted by googlefudge
Way to fail to deal with any of my points.

And your version of heaven sounds worse than your version of hell so the worst thing your god could do to me is threaten me with heaven.

I am not here to deal with your irrelevant points or do your dirty laundry.
I am here as a witness to Christ. I am one crying out in the wilderness. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Holy! Holy! Holy! Praise the Lord!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not here to deal with your irrelevant points or do your dirty laundry.
I am here as a witness to Christ. I am one crying out in the wilderness. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Holy! Holy! Holy! Praise the Lord!

It sounds to me like you need to join a monastery then you will be right in the middle of your fellows with no dissension.

Originally posted by sonhouse
It sounds to me like you need to join a monastery then you will be right in the middle of your fellows with no dissension.

You guys are the ones that need to here the truth. You are the wilderness of the world that these words must reach. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not here to deal with your irrelevant points or do your dirty laundry.
I am here as a witness to Christ. I am one crying out in the wilderness. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Holy! Holy! Holy! Praise the Lord!

I get the feeling you are only reading the first or second line of the responses to you.
Is this true?

Originally posted by RJHinds
You guys are the ones that need to here [b]the truth. You are the wilderness of the world that these words must reach. 😏
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy![/b]

Do you seriously think you are going to CONVERT us with your desperate rhetoric?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I get the feeling you are only reading the first or second line of the responses to you.
Is this true?

What response are you referring to?