Two Options

Originally posted by sonship
Now something that you have come to believe - that you can believe. And that is how probably everyone who knows Christ's saving power and presence mysteriously came to enjoy this Person the Lord Jesus.

I would have thought most Christians ~ or adherents of any religion, for that matter ~ hold their particular religious beliefs first and foremost because of geography and anthropology: the culture they were born into, the religion of their parents, and the nature of their upbringing.

Originally posted by FMF
I would have thought most Christians ~ or adherents of any religion, for that matter ~ hold their particular religious beliefs first and foremost because of geography and anthropology: the culture they were born into, the religion of their parents, and the nature of their upbringing.

That is not a sure fire sociological analysis of the matter.

IE. By far, the most influential Christian workers on my Christian life and thinking were born and raised in Mainland China.

Originally posted by FMF
You should try. This is a debate and discussion forum. It would be to the forum's benefit if you did try to communicate something meaningful.

Pretty good. A career awaits you in stand-up comedy.

Or maybe not.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Pretty good. A career awaits you in stand-up comedy.

Or maybe not.

Suzianne, it was you who admitted you are "not exactly trying to communicate anything meaningful" on this forum, not me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed it over the years. You sell your self short. 🙂

Originally posted by sonship
That is not a sure fire sociological analysis of the matter.

IE. By far, the most influential Christian workers on my Christian life and thinking were born and raised in Mainland China.

If you had been born in the house next to mine here, you most probably would have been a Muslim today ~ and your proclivity for religiosity and pouring over texts would most likely have been channeled into, and satiated by, Islamic literature and the Islamic notion of the Abrahamic God.

Originally posted by FMF
If you had been born in the house next to mine here, you most probably would have been a Muslim today ~ and your proclivity for religiosity and pouring over texts would most likely have been channeled into, and satiated by, Islamic literature and the Islamic notion of the Abrahamic God.

According to sheer numbers of surrounding people during my formative years perhaps I should be a secular humanist dedicated to the theory of Evolution and semi tolerant agnosticism.

However things could have been, somehow God had mercy upon me to believe the Gospel eventually. I do not doubt it now because I could have been born or brought up elsewhere.

I am not seeking an ad populum reasoning to make it all make sense. And I certainly don't want to rationalize how other possible circumstances furnish me with excuses to not want to love Jesus with all my heart.

Originally posted by sonship
I am not seeking an ad populum reasoning to make it all make sense. And I certainly don't want to rationalize how other possible circumstances furnish me with excuses to not want to love Jesus with all my heart.

Do you think my comment about geography and anthropology, about culture, and parental influence, and upbringing, were an argumentum ad populum? I don't think so. I think it's a valid observation about the nature and origin of sincerely held and resilient religious beliefs. As for you finding "excuses to not want to love Jesus with all [your] heart", don't get me wrong: I think you should persist with your religious beliefs if they give you comfort and purpose.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think my comment about geography and anthropology, about culture, and parental influence, and upbringing, were an argumentum ad populum? I don't think so. I think it's a valid observation about the nature and origin of sincerely held and resilient religious beliefs. As for you finding "excuses to not want to love Jesus with all [your] heart", don't get me ...[text shortened]... ng: I think you should persist with your religious beliefs if they give you comfort and purpose.

Do you think my comment about geography and anthropology, about culture, and parental influence, and upbringing, were an argumentum ad populum?
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No I don't think you are trying to say Christ is Lord because of popularity. Rather I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they only believe because of local popularity of belief.


I don't think so. I think it's a valid observation about the nature and origin of sincerely held and resilient religious beliefs. As for you finding "excuses to not want to love Jesus with all [your] heart", don't get me wrong: I think you should persist with your religious beliefs if they give you comfort and purpose.

If it is not true, you should not wish this on me.
You cannot simply wish people should do what gives them purpose and comfort alone.

And in the past I think truer colors you have shown in saying basically - "Stop that." IE. preaching, proselytizing, etc. Am I right ? Previously I got the feeling that you felt that I should NOT do what I do here to write about the Gospel.

Have you adjusted your attitude some ?

Originally posted by sonship
And in the past I think truer colors you have shown in saying basically - "Stop that." IE. preaching, proselytizing, etc. Am I right ? Previously I got the feeling that you felt that I should NOT do what I do here to write about the Gospel.

No. You are wrong and/or making it up. My issue with you has always been the incoherence of the things you say ~ I can't take seriously on morality or justice, for example. But my stance has always been, as it is with Muslims too, you should just stick with your religion if it affords you some solace and allows you to cope with life. I do not seek to replace your superstitions with some different set of superstitions. I am not in competition with you in any way.

Originally posted by sonship
I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they only believe because of local popularity of belief.

Adding the word "only" is a straw man, sonship. You added it deliberately presumably. Do you dispute my observation about the influence of geography and anthropology, about culture, and parental influence, and upbringing on the distribution or religions and religious beliefs?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]Adding the word "only" is a straw man, sonship. You added it deliberately presumably.

Do you dispute my observation about the influence of geography and anthropology, about culture, and parental influence, and upbringing on the distribution or religions and religious beliefs?
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No. I thought I replied in a way to indicate that you had some ground for the assertion.

My first reply pointed out that it was not a sure fire analysis.

Straw man argument ? I think that you trying to get me to disagree that such a thing as cultural influence exists, is itself an attempt at a straw man argument.

If I was too hard on your for simply saying, in essence "If you lived around here you'd be a Moslem" maybe I was too hard. But based on past encounters I don't think general Christian Gospel debunking was far behind.

Anyway, however the message came to some of us, we will live these things, teach these things, preach these things, until we see Jesus.

Originally posted by sonship
Straw man argument ? I think that you trying to get me to disagree that such a thing as cultural influence exists, is itself an attempt at a straw man argument.

Yes. A straw man argument. You characterized what I had said as "I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they only believe because of local popularity of belief" (when that wasn't what I'd said) because that was a stance you wanted to express your disagreement with - it being easier to do so than with my actual stance. It's called a straw man argument.

Originally posted by FMF
Yes. A straw man argument. You characterized what I had said as "I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they only believe because of local popularity of belief" (when that wasn't what I'd said) because that was a stance you wanted to express your disagreement with - it being easier to do so than with my actual stance. It's called a straw man argument.

Why did you point out that I would probably be a Moslem if I was raised in your neighborhood ? If I wrongly assumed your point what was your point ?

GB -

Now something that you have come to believe - that you can believe. And that is how probably everyone who knows Christ's saving power and presence mysteriously came to enjoy this Person the Lord Jesus.

FMF -

I would have thought most Christians ~ or adherents of any religion, for that matter ~ hold their particular religious beliefs first and foremost because of geography and anthropology: the culture they were born into, the religion of their parents, and the nature of their upbringing.

Was your point that "first and foremost" I believe what I do about Christ because of geography and anthroplogy ?

My response, I think, was that what I believe is mostly enfluenced by two Christian teachers born and raised in Mainland China.

For that reason, though your assumption has some validity it has its limitations.

me:

That is not a sure fire sociological analysis of the matter.

IE. By far, the most influential Christian workers on my Christian life and thinking were born and raised in Mainland China.

Then you replied:

If you had been born in the house next to mine here, you most probably would have been a Muslim today ~ and your proclivity for religiosity and pouring over texts would most likely have been channeled into, and satiated by, Islamic literature and the Islamic notion of the Abrahamic God.

So you want to protest innocence when I say you are attempting to plant a doubt that anything but geography and local culture plays the most important part of my faith in Christ ?

You are being unfairly misunderstood ? I don't think so.

Originally posted by sonship
Why did you point out that I would probably be a Moslem if I was raised in your neighborhood ? If I wrongly assumed your point what was your point ?

GB - [quote] Now something that you have come to believe - that you can believe. And that is how probably everyone who knows Christ's saving power and presence mysteriously came to enjoy this Person t ...[text shortened]... tant part of my faith in Christ ?

You are being unfairly misunderstood ? I don't think so.

You added the word "only" deliberately to misrepresent what I said to make it easier to attack. It's called a straw man. You do it quite often. Don't act surprised about being called on it..

Originally posted by FMF
You added the word "only" deliberately to misrepresent what I said to make it easier to attack. It's called a straw man. You do it quite often. Don't act surprised about being called on it..

"I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they only believe because of local popularity of belief"

So you're upset by the use of the word "only".

I'll revize that to use your own expression "first and foremost".
There, straw dealt with.

"I think you are attempting to plant the suspicion in believers' hearts that they ["first and foremost"] believe because of local popularity of belief"