Victims of Pentacostal Cultists

Originally posted by FMF
"Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?" is not a trick question. What are you on about?

[b]It is an excellent denomination of the Christian church. I have known literally hundreds of people who have had their lives wonderfully transformed by an experience with Jesus whilst being in this movement and i have seen no harm whatsoever in ...[text shortened]... is woeful. Utterly woeful.

But I am in favour of freedom of speech, action and thought.

It's the first thing that came into my head; I just made it up to satisfy your childish need for an argument. I couldn't care less what you think of any denomination (I’m not a church goer anyway) I'm just annoyed that I’ve allowed myself to dragged into your silly little world.

I've tried to support your interest in your friends during this thread but that's not your real interest is it - you are just a selfish little boy who wants to pick a fight with people of a different view to you. You just alienate people with your own dogma and I'm not going to indulge you anymore. *exits*

Originally posted by divegeester
It's the first thing that came into my head [...] You just alienate people with your own dogma and I'm not going to indulge you anymore. *exits*

*Flounces out*, I think is more apt.

My hope in starting this debate was to provoke knowledgeable people into framing pentacostalism in a positive way so that I could perhaps better understand the predicament that my friends are in.

Seems you are unable to help.

Does anyone have any true anecdotes about how turning to pentacostalism helped someone to conduct their business better? i.e. with increased integrity, treating people well, making sounder decisions etc.?

Originally posted by FMF
I have answered you more than once. Please read my posts again.

I've said she very well could be in a cult, not my argument I'm still waiting
on my answer, because you have not given me one! You just state your
claim over and over.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Then why doesn't Kelly mount some kind of defence of the pentacostalism he/she likes and approves of?

In my OP I asked: "Presumably no one here is going to defend Pentacostalism, right?"

Clearly this was slightly tongue in cheek, in an effort to stimulate a debate. And yet Kelly hasn't defended pentacostalism - except in as much as he/she has tried to deny ...[text shortened]... re in.

Instead, all I have got from some - to a degree, anyway - is a kind of denial.

I'll defend Pentacostalism, but you have not given me something about the
movement that needs to be defended outside you don't believe in it.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Well in the context of the suffering going on here, I don't think the disapproval of "divegeester" ranks very high. Sorry about that. RHP can make people feel a little more important than they really are, that's clear. Me inclided from time to time. No one has come forward to defend pentacostalism. There's only denial. And obfuscation. And now - with you - an at ...[text shortened]... ust plain blah blah blah while the original question I posed in the OP goes unanswered.

She does sound like she is in a cult, where people are cut off from the
rest of the world; however, that isn't being a Pentacostal so I'm still waiting
on you to show me how that part of your complaint is valid.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
She does sound like she is in a cult, where people are cut off from the
rest of the world

I don't know where you got the "cut off from the rest of the world" thing from. Sorry if I wasn't clear: she is the owner and manager of a bar in a busy tourist drag here in the Indonesian city of Yogyakarta.

She is a pentacostal. She attributes all her decisions to what she describes as her direct personal experience of God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. She cites the will of God, the will of Jesus and the will of the Holy Spirit at all times. She did not do this when she was a Catholic.

Her embrace of pentacostalism has, in her mind and in her deeds, empowered her to use the spiritual power she feels her conversion has invested in her to direct her life, her interpersonal realtionships and her business decisions. She is not in the slightest bit embarrassed or uncertain about anything that has happened. She is utterly sincere. She is actively trying to recruit others now. She is reportedly quite prominent at the nearby pentacostal church.

She is outwardly completely sane, and perfectly able to explain how she came about this transformation of her life through faith in Jesus and the importance of the ecstatic religious experience pentacostalism has given her. She is not hysterical - except to a skeptic like me, she is - when she's completely convinced she's filled with the Holy Spirit and she emits incomprehensible speech in an imaginary language, in a kind of trance state, seemingly an episode of religious ecstasy. She believes emphatically that her glossolalia is expressing the mysteries of God to those around her - a key tenet of pentacostalism.

She is a pentacostal. A fact is a fact. Her deeds are driven by her faith. For her God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all very real, and fully involved in her life, her conduct, her interpersonal relationships, and her business decisions. She is no mumbling wreck. She is vivacious, educated, assertive, and filled with firm and fervent faith that she is able to explain lucidly. It seems many other local pentacostals think the world of her and happy that she is now in Yogyakarta rather than Italy.

You have on a few occasions suggested that she is not a real pentacostal. How so?

Edit: maybe I should just make it clear that the thread title "Victims of Pentacostal Cultists" refers - in my mind - to the Muslims working in the cafe, not to the owner of the cafe.

Originally posted by FMF
WARNING: soap-opera-esque post follows

Hold onto your hats for a modest tale of small town tragedy in a far off land that could be anywhere. The Indonesian wife-of-an-Italian-white-guy "owner" of a local bar & cafe (called Laba-Laba or "spider" ) returned in January, leaving a one year old baby - who'd not yet taken first steps or uttered a first word - behin ...[text shortened]...

Anyone think I am getting this all wrong?

What annoys me is the fact that she halved the salaries of all the Muslims.

The problem with many Pentecostal denominations is that discernment is marginalized by an enthusiasm for speaking in tongues. There's nothing wrong, of course, with being led by the Holy Spirit (believers everywhere, everyday do so habitually and successfully), except when you cannot discern whether or not a certain 'prompting' arises from your own mind, from God Himself, or from a demonic source.

In general, where spiritual immaturity abounds, discernment is relatively lax. A more spiritual mature believer would never EVER halve the salaries of his or her Muslim workers for no good reason, as if it were God's will. Such a prompting could not have originated in God who in scripture is already on record saying, "I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me" (Malachi 3:5).

A discerning Christian compares the promptings which arise from within against scripture in order to determine whether such promptings are from God, or not. More than likely this woman is being guided by either a deceiving spirit, or her own deceived mind, or both - but not God. Unfortunately, this kind of undisciplined modus operandi is too often characteristic of Pentecostal congregations.

Originally posted by KellyJay
She does sound like she is in a cult, where people are cut off from the
rest of the world; however, that isn't being a Pentacostal so I'm still waiting
on you to show me how that part of your complaint is valid.
Kelly

I think you could make a case that there are many pentecostals who do see themselves cut off from the world. All the pentecostal churches in my area practice in isolation with no cooperative efforts with other denominations. They vilify other mainline denominations. They practice a theology of fatalism and isolationism. In fact, the more isolationist their thinking, the more "chosen" they are.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
What annoys me is the fact that she halved the salaries of all the Muslims.

The problem with many Pentecostal denominations is that discernment is marginalized by an enthusiasm for speaking in tongues. There's nothing wrong, of course, with being led by the Holy Spirit (believers everywhere, everyday do so habitually and successfully), except when yo ...[text shortened]... isciplined modus operandi is too often characteristic of Pentecostal congregations.

Thanks for this thought provoking response. My mind has been chewing over stuff like genuine faith, demonic intervention, schizophrenia, an estranged wife's money-making-scam and all the rest. Your discussion of "spiritual immaturity" has perhaps equipped me a realistic framework for my inevitable heart to heart with her, something that my anger and incredulity has prevented thus far.

Originally posted by FMF
Thanks for this thought provoking response. My mind has been chewing over stuff like genuine faith, demonic intervention, schizophrenia, an estranged wife's money-making-scam and all the rest. Your discussion of "spiritual immaturity" has perhaps equipped me a realistic framework for my inevitable heart to heart with her, something that my anger and incredulity has prevented thus far.

I hope everything works out.

BTW, the speaking in tongues prayer sessions she's holding have no biblical support whatsoever. In fact, that kind of behavior is strictly discouraged. Paul basically told his flock to cut that kind of crap out, simply because an unbeliever might overhear you and question your sanity. "If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

This is what astounds me about some Pentecostals, that they elevate speaking in tongues above all other spiritual gifts, even when Paul explicitly declares that prophecy is superior. It boggles the mind. "He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues... If an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in [to the church] while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" (1 Corinthians 14:5, 24-25).

Prophecy is the interpretation of scripture, and Paul has made it abundantly clear that such a gift is of infinitely higher value than speaking in tongues. The desire of a Christian's heart should be to edify those present, i.e., bless them with the riches hidden in the word of God, rather than stoke their own pride by speaking in an unknown language.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23).

So, according to Paul the tongue speakers can be taken for crazy, right?
And those who still do it, despite the word of Paul, really are crazy, right?
Paul has spoken, then it must be true.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
So, according to Paul the tongue speakers can be taken for crazy, right?
And those who still do it, despite the word of Paul, really are crazy, right?
Paul has spoken, then it must be true.

Of course, that's not at all what Paul said.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Of course, that's not at all what Paul said.

He said a lot of things, some good, some not quite so good.
But now we're talking about the Pentaostals, right?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Of course, ['tongue speakers can be taken for crazy is'] not at all what Paul said.

No. It isn't. And that's not the tack I am going to take with the cafe owner. I am going go with some of the points you made earlier.

Personally, I believe that speaking in tongues is either deception or self-deception. One or the other. But my personal belief isn't really relevant to the task of trying to help my friends out.

I have no interest in modifying her beliefs - only her disgraceful and ill-advised behaviour.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in [to the church] while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" (1 Corinthians 14:5, 24-25).

Clearly prophesying is not very common as so far my conclusion has always been 'they are out of their minds'.