24 Dec 11
3 edits
Most everyone here is refering to "hell". I will use the term the lake of fire as that is where hell is cast in the end. And that is where the lost end up in the end.
The lake of fire means that a being is free to be eternally a rebel against God.
"If freedom of will is an absolute reality, conferred by the Creator on angels and men, it must extend to the eternal destiny of these beings; for if there is, or is to come, a point where God enforces His will against that of the creature, then at that point the creature ceases to be free.
Therefore if it is the determination of God that at last every being shall be brought into harmony with Himself, then on the matter of eternal destiny their will is not free, for the rebel cannot finally have his own way." G.H. Lang
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywillDo you have any idea how Satan could rebel against God, once he is cast
Most everyone here is refering to "hell". I will use the term [b]the lake of fire as that is where hell is cast in the end. And that is where the lost end up in the end.
The lake of fire means that a being is free to be eternally a rebel against God.
"If freedom of will is an absolute reality, conferred by the Creator on angels and m ...[text shortened]... their will is not free, for the rebel cannot finally have his own way." G.H. Lang [/b]
into the lake of fire for eternity? It appears to me that any rebellion
would have no effect on God or anyone else outside the lake of fire.
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywilllang is trying to sugar coat what the bible says about hell to make god appear to be a loving deity instead of a stark raving lunatic. it is a complete misrepresentation. it is not a place where people can be 'eternally' rebelling against god. the true descriptions of hell in the bible are:
Most everyone here is refering to "hell". I will use the term [b]the lake of fire as that is where hell is cast in the end. And that is where the lost end up in the end.
The lake of fire means that a being is free to be eternally a rebel against God.
"If freedom of will is an absolute reality, conferred by the Creator on angels and m ...[text shortened]... their will is not free, for the rebel cannot finally have his own way." G.H. Lang [/b]
-a place where they will be suffering eternal torment with no rest day and night
-a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth
-an everlasting fire
-a place where psycho will have vengeance on those who didn't know him and rejected the gospels of christ
-a place to be tortured with fire and sulfur while the angels and christ watch
there is no way to sugar coat that. it is a revelation of mans vision of the madness of god. there is nothing remotely moral about it.
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritFrom the point of view of a person from the outside looking in, it sounds
lang is trying to sugar coat what the bible says about hell to make god appear to be a loving deity instead of a stark raving lunatic. it is a complete misrepresentation. it is not a place where people can be 'eternally' rebelling against god. the true descriptions of hell in the bible are:
-a place where they will be suffering eternal torment with ...[text shortened]... a revelation of mans vision of the madness of god. there is nothing remotely moral about it.
pretty good to me. HalleluYah !!! 😏
24 Dec 11
5 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
lang is trying to sugar coat what the bible says about hell to make god appear to be a loving deity instead of a stark raving lunatic. it is a complete misrepresentation. it is not a place where people can be 'eternally' rebelling against god. the true descriptions of hell in the bible are:
-a place where they will be suffering eternal torment with a revelation of mans vision of the madness of god. there is nothing remotely moral about it.
lang is trying to sugar coat what the bible says about hell to make god appear to be a loving deity instead of a stark raving lunatic. it is a complete misrepresentation. it is not a place where people can be 'eternally' rebelling against god. the true descriptions of hell in the bible are:
I don't like to dignify your blasphemies with responses. And it is your mental state that I question.
What G.H. Lang wrote there conforms with what the Bible says in its last chapter, Revelation 22:11
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still."
Up to a certain point, a man remains in the state in which he is.
God's salvation has much time to transform the saved to be a son of God. The unrepentant lost person eventually frozen in some unfortunate state.
-a place where they will be suffering eternal torment with no rest day and night
-a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth
Nothing G.H. Lang wrote there contradicted that.
I have always noticed that there are no bars or keeping fence to confine the unbeliever in that punishment. Perhaps to step out of it into the light of God would be a greater suffering. That is to confront the pure light of the One whose love they have rejected, might be a deeper agony.
One can have himself and the questionable gratification that his revolt has reached the ultimate point of rejecting God Himself. The Devil apparently will NEVER repent.
And before the last judgment we also see some human beings who are so absolutely taken up in their revolt against God that they totally refuse to repent:
"And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)
"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain. And blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:10,11)
"And great hail, [every stone] about the weight of a talent, came down out of heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague of it is exceedingly great." (Rev. 16:21)
These three passages all appear at in the section dealing with the final bowls of the wrath of God poured out on the Antichrist's kingdom. As you can see, regardless of their suffering, some deep seated and perverse satisfaction has them frozen in rebellion. They simply refuse to repent or submit to God.
So in some sense, they are getting what they want.
-an everlasting fire
-a place where psycho will have vengeance on those who didn't know him and rejected the gospels of christ
-a place to be tortured with fire and sulfur while the angels and christ watch
there is no way to sugar coat that. it is a revelation of mans vision of the madness of god. there is nothing remotely moral about it.
Nothing is being sugar coated. If anything is being sugar coated it is by you.
The horrible prospect of refusing Christ's salvation, that He is God incarnate, and He died on the cross in your place that you might be saved. If ANYTHING, it is you who are trying to sugar coat the wretchedness of refusing Christ's redemptive work that you might have eternal life.
I have no idea of real details of eternal separation from God. But it is God's responsibility to communicate to us a state totally without His presence and blessing in terrible enough terms, that we may understand it is something we want to avoid.
Perhaps the fire is just an unquenchable THIRST of eternal isolation from the Source of all goodness and blessing.
Whatever it is, Christ saves us from sharing the miserable destiny of Satan. And Christ causes us to share the wonderful destiny of the Son of God.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywilltherein lies your problem. the blasphemy you accuse me of is subjective to your mind and cult. i don't recognize your biblical illusions of god as resembling anything close to a god, rather you worship an archetypal demon and i've demonstrated its demonic nature in other threads.lang is trying to sugar coat what the bible says about hell to make god appear to be a loving deity instead of a stark raving lunatic. it is a complete misrepresentation. it is not a place where people can be 'eternally' rebelling against god. the true descriptions of hell in the bible are:
I don't like to dignify your blasphemies with responses. And it is your mental state that I question.
such words i speak could never apply to a true and worthy god, ergo i cannot blaspheme against god.
What G.H. Lang wrote there conforms with what the Bible says in its last chapter, Revelation 22:11
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still."
as absurd as that is, it is not what lang was passing off as a depiction of hell. let there be no miscommunication. the bible depicts hell as a place for eternal torture where senior psychopath will exact his vengeance on those who don't love him and obey his every whim.
Up to a certain point, a man remains in the state in which he is.
only if he is forced to. barring mental illness which causes ill behavior, the state of a man's mind is constantly in flux. he does not remain in the state in which he is.
[quote]
-a place where they will be suffering eternal torment with no rest day and night
-a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth
Nothing G.H. Lang wrote there contradicted that.
[/quote]
it is your interpretation of lang that is in error then.
I have always noticed that there are no bars or keeping fence to confine the unbeliever in that punishment. Perhaps to step out of it into the light of God would be a greater suffering. That is to confront the pure light of the One whose love they have rejected, might be a deeper agony.
are you trying to justify a willful eternal torture exacted by biblegod as vengeance on those he finds unworthy by claiming that they might suffer more in the light of biblegod?
the absurdity never ends.
there is a marketable difference between "separation" from biblegod, where biblegod leaves those who don't love him alone versus abject, directed torture for eternity where there is no separation, those being tortured are constantly reminded of biblegod's cruelty for eternity.
One can have himself and the questionable gratification that his revolt has reached the ultimate point of rejecting God Himself. The Devil apparently will NEVER repent.
how could he while being subjected to torture? biblegod's justice is not aimed at rehabilitation, it's for vengeance.
And before [/b]the last judgment we also see some human beings who are so absolutely taken up in their revolt against God that they totally refuse to repent:
"And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)
so biblegod sends plagues and demands that they glorify him in exchange for what? ending the plagues? what a pathetic creature you worship. truly astonishing.
These three passages all appear at in the section dealing with the final bowls of the wrath of God poured out on the Antichrist's kingdom. As you can see, regardless of their suffering, some deep seated and perverse satisfaction has them frozen in rebellion. They simply refuse to repent or submit to God.
very admirable of them. truly anyone who submits to such a tyrant can garner no respect. the kind of beast you worship deserves only open rebellion. it is unworthy of the mantle of god.
Nothing is being sugar coated. If anything is being sugar coated it is by you.
The horrible prospect of refusing Christ's salvation, that He is God incarnate, and He died on the cross in your place that you might be saved. If ANYTHING, it is you who are trying to sugar coat the wretchedness of refusing Christ's redemptive work that you might have eternal life.
fantasy talk. i don't know that christ lived, that he died for my salvation, or that he did redemptive work, or that he was risen, or that i need salvation at all. this is not about what christ allegedly did, it's about what christ allegedly will do. what he will do is send people who don't believe any of the above to a place of eternal torture. that makes him patently immoral.
I have no idea of real details of eternal separation from God.
try reading the bible i already gave the important points.
But it is God's responsibility to communicate to us a state totally without His presence and blessing in terrible enough terms, that we may understand it is something we want to avoid.
great! let him come and make his case. perhaps give a tour of heaven and hell. it would nice to get a taste of the eternity you will be facing. it would be foolish to buy real estate without visiting it and checking out the neighborhood.
if he does not do so, to every individual human being personally, he has failed his responsibility.
Perhaps the fire is just an unquenchable THIRST of eternal isolation from the Source of all goodness and blessing.
no, it's eternal torture in a lake of fire and sulfur/brimstone with wailing and gnashing of teeth. if they had a thirst for the source of goodness, they could be easily rehabilitated, which would make the punishment even more cruel and immoral.
Whatever it is, Christ saves us from sharing the miserable destiny of Satan. And Christ causes us to share the wonderful destiny of the Son of God.
that doesn't change the status of his morality, or lack thereof.
25 Dec 11
4 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
therein lies your problem. the blasphemy you accuse me of is subjective to your mind and cult. i don't recognize your biblical illusions of god as resembling anything close to a god, rather you worship an archetypal demon and i've demonstrated its demonic nature in other threads.
such words i speak could never apply to a true and worthy god, ergo i can uote]
that doesn't change the status of his morality, or lack thereof.
therein lies your problem. the blasphemy you accuse me of is subjective to your mind and cult. i don't recognize your biblical illusions of god as resembling anything close to a god, rather you worship an archetypal demon and i've demonstrated its demonic nature in other threads.
Why are you trying so hard to do the same thing then? From "lunatic" to "archetypal demon," you are simply putting more and more effort into your blasphemies. If you are trying to shock me, I am not shocked. I expect you to only encrease your vehemence and compound your twisted slanders against God and Christ.
The only thing I would respond to in your tortured rant is that there is plenty of remedial dealings of God upon man for correction. But eternal perditition is not for that. It is retribution. But there is plenty of corrective dealings of God upon His sons or upon man in general in the Bible.
such words i speak could never apply to a true and worthy god, ergo i cannot blaspheme against god.
Sure you can. Your lack of belief does not stop you from doing it either.
as absurd as that is, it is not what lang was passing off as a depiction of hell. let there be no miscommunication. the bible depicts hell as a place for eternal torture where senior psychopath will exact his vengeance on those who don't love him and obey his every whim.
Actually, in the last analysis it simply depicts the lake of fire as a place where someone goes whose name is not written in the book of life.
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:14,15)
Nothing here mentioned of love, or of obeying every whim. The only thing mentioned here is where one's name is or is not written.
It is also perculiar that the word "repent" cannot even be found in the whole Gospel of John. But the word 'believe" is found repeatedly.
So I have to reject your caricature. Too much of the New Testament emphasizes believing unto salvation. LOVE ME OR BURN is your warped caricature for the most part.
I might not say that there is absolutely NO passage speaking of punishment for not loving. But the greater majority, as far as eternal destiny is concerned, simply rest on believing.
" ... that whosever BELIEVES on Him should not perish but have eternal life" ( See John 3:16)
Even the very specific teaching of Paul only says CONFESS with the mouth unto salvation and believing in the heart unto righteousness.
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation." (Rom. 10:9,10)
Nothing is in the specific injunction of the Apostle about one has to LOVE God or that one has to OBEY every whim of God or be damned. That is your angry caricature.
Of course God wants my love. And of course God wants me to live by the GRACE of Christ in finer and finer details. But when Paul mentions HOW to be saved he only speaks of BELIEF and CONFESSION with the mouth.
Of course as God's light encreased within the one born of God, as he sees more and more how much he has been forgiven, love will grow. And as he notices the joy and freedom of living by the empowering grace of Christ he will want to allow the Spirit of Jesus to permeate more and more of his living.
So you can try your warped "LOVE ME OR BURN" caricature on someone else. It doesn't work on me. I read the Bible and carefully.
25 Dec 11
2 edits
Originally posted by 667joeIt hurts the character of the blasphemer. It is a stain on his or her character and damages one's own humanity.
In reality, blasphemy is truly a victimless crime!
It would be the same as cursing one's parents damages one's own humanity. The first to suffer is the blasphemer. Of course his conscience may be seered as with a hot iron and have lost sensativity.
This is like a sick man not knowing his sickness. But God is willing and ready to forgive and forget because of the redemption of Christ, if the sinner would turn to Christ and repent.
Every "careless" word will be recorded of man and brought to bear in judgment (Matt 12:36). If every "careless" word has bearing on God's examining of a man's life how much more a word of blasphemy.
This poster has called God a demon. Of course his hypocrisy seems evident in that the Bible he opposes probably furnished him with all he knowledge he has of the demonic realm. Where else did he learn about demons except in the bible?
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by VoidSpirit"depends on which god you're talking about. it also depends on how you are using the word "just"
depends on which god you're talking about.
it also depends on how you are using the word "just"
for example, if you are referring to conforming to a standard of correctness, and god creates his own standard correctness, then you could say that he is "just" if he adheres to those rules of correctness.
the bible god is arguably unjust since he doe ...[text shortened]... ns them to this eternal torture? the most immoral being in the universe; that's who.
Dependant indeed! I only always talk about one God, because there is only one God.
There are two kinds of justice. Man's and God's. Man's justice is full of compromise. But God's justice is sure and true, and absolute.
"the bible god is arguably unjust since he does not adhere to his own rules of correctness. he considers himself above justice."
Do you presume to judge God? Very dangerous territory. God is quite above His creation, but God doesn't break His own rules. God is just, honest and true in every respect. Your interpretation of what the Bible means by what it says is just that; Yours.
Look at yourself. Do you really think you are in a position to judge God?
The only way to understand what the Bible means by what it says is to allow it to speak for itself, define itself and interpret itself. Easy to say, but hard to do. Everyone is always trying to speak for the Bible, define its meaning and give the interpretation of what it means by what it says.
The Bible says what it means, and means what it says. "In the beginning God created..."
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywilli call it as i see it. when your biblegod is described as behaving like a psychotic lunatic, i will call it exactly that. i don't expect you to be shocked, you've already sold your soul to that demon.
[b]therein lies your problem. the blasphemy you accuse me of is subjective to your mind and cult. i don't recognize your biblical illusions of god as resembling anything close to a god, rather you worship an archetypal demon and i've demonstrated its demonic nature in other threads.
Why are you trying so hard to do the same thing then? Fr ...[text shortened]... you to only encrease your vehemence and compound your twisted slanders against God and Christ.
when it comes to a true god, or the concept of a true god, it would be impossible to blaspheme against it for a true god would be so far above having its feelings hurt by mortals. but that's my conception of it. your conception of god is a blasphemy to common decency.
The only thing I would respond to in your tortured rant is that there is plenty of remedial dealings of God upon man for correction. But eternal perditition is not for that. It is retribution. But there is plenty of corrective dealings of God upon His sons or upon man in general in the Bible.
a fallacy of terms. eternal perdition cannot be retribution. there is nothing moral about eternal perdition.
[quote]
such words i speak could never apply to a true and worthy god, ergo i cannot blaspheme against god.
Sure you can. Your lack of belief does not stop you from doing it either.
[/quote]
let's see. blasphemy is defined as showing irreverence to a deity or a holy being.
nope. biblegod is not a deity nor is it a holy being. no blasphemy on my part.
Actually, in the last analysis it simply depicts the lake of fire as a place where someone goes whose name is not written in the book of life. ...
your tortured explanations does nothing to undo the immoral nature of the place or the immoral act of condemning people there for finite crimes, or for the immorality of criminalizing refusal to believe or love.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywilli'll tell you what's damaging to humanity. worshiping tyrants as gods.
It hurts the character of the blasphemer. It is a stain on his or her character and damages one's own humanity.
It would be the same as cursing one's parents damages one's own humanity. The first to suffer is the blasphemer. Of course his conscience may be seered as with a hot iron and have lost sensativity.
This is like a sick man not knowing his si ...[text shortened]... he has of the demonic realm. Where else did he learn about demons except in the bible?