What does Jesus want from us?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Would you argue that I have rejected Santa Claus because I don't believe in him? Or have I simply rejected the idea of Santa Claus existing? - The distinction is important as rejecting a Santa Claus I believe in may result in me getting no presents.

But the rather obvious difference here is that Santa Claus does not exist.

God does exist. And so, yes, you are rejecting him by not believing in Him.

And I agree, the distinction IS important.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Read what Jesus said. Let HIS words speak for themselves.

Here are the words Jesus spoke in John 8:31-35 (with one of the sentences placed first for ease of understanding) It's as simple as 1,2,3,:
[quote]
1) Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
2)If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; ...[text shortened]... ly chaney3 will reread your posts to me on page 13 of this thread and see how you went about it.

This fails in the very same way that Rajk's dogma fails.

You both need to get to church and stop thinking it's okay to claim that everyone is a sinner and therefore Jesus rejects them. Oh, yeah, everyone except you, that is.

You claim that cherry-picking scripture is bad. Then why do you both continue doing it?

And why is it okay to call people out for not respecting Jesus' commandments when both of you fail to adhere to ALL of His commandments, like you say we must do?

Yes, this is Rajk's DAISNAID dogma. And apparently you fully believe in that dogma yourself.

Originally posted by chaney3
Some thread observations thus far:

Jesus was a human Jewish Rabbi, with no divinity.
Jesus was a human, but the divine Son of God.
Jesus was a human, but God Himself.
Belief in Jesus is not necessary for eternal life.
Belief in Jesus is absolutely necessary for eternal life.
The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross ensures salvation for everyone, regardle ...[text shortened]... on......Jesus, and what He may actually want from us.....if one even believes He existed at all.

This is mainly because we are all human, and we all fall short of the glory of God.

One's belief in the Bible and what it says depends on the human doing the believing. Those who live out of the mainstream are going to have theology out of the mainstream.

Literalists claim that the Word is all we need, and yet they miss key details that are not exactly explicit in the text. One needs faith.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What about it?

Ah yes. Just the kind of retort I expected from you. 🙂

Originally posted by Suzianne
But the rather obvious difference here is that Santa Claus does not exist.

God does exist. And so, yes, you are rejecting him by not believing in Him.

And I agree, the distinction IS important.

Yes, I understand that is what you believe. For me though, the existence of both Santa and God remain unproven. You merely stating God exists doesn't change that.

Originally posted by FMF
Ah yes. Just the kind of retort I expected from you. 🙂

? I am confused trying to understand your post. You said what about Hebrews ...
I said what about it? Well what do you not understand about Hebrews>?

Originally posted by FMF
Ah yes. Just the kind of retort I expected from you. 🙂

He is going to post a long cut and paste explanation that will make no sense to anyone that can read. . 😀

Originally posted by FMF
Ah yes. Just the kind of retort I expected from you. 🙂

Ok, I see. I had to go back. You are referring to Rajk's comments on Hebrews 6:4?
I will post a commentary from the REV to show you, Rajk has it all backwards...it is very simple....

“and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles [see Appendix 1: “The Permanence of Christian Salvation”]. This verse is not about losing salvation and not being able to regain it, although that is what many people think. If this verse were about losing one’s salvation, then we need to be clear about what it is saying, because it would be saying that if a saved person sins and loses his salvation, he cannot be forgiven and be saved again because that is “impossible.”
Could this one verse in Hebrews contradict all of the other verses in the Epistles that indicate the New Birth is permanent? A principle of interpretation is that the many clear verses on a subject outweigh what a contradictory verse seems to be saying. Also, can it really be true that the Bible says if a saved person sins and falls away from the faith it is “impossible” for him to get forgiveness and be saved again? Even in the Old Testament God implored the people of Israel to forsake evil and return to Him. Could it be that in the Old Testament a person could turn away from God but be accepted back with open arms if he would just ask God for forgiveness, but in the Christian Church if a person sins and falls away it is “impossible” for him to come back? That makes no sense.
A study of the Scripture shows us that people who sinned were welcomed back into the Christian community. For example, in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 the Apostle Paul asked the Church to welcome back a person who had sinned. In Galatians 6:1 people who sin are to be “restored.” The Church Epistles are filled with exhortations for Christians to stop sinning and obey God. The invitation of God always is for people to stop sinning and come back to Him. That fact in itself tells us there is a different way to understand Hebrews 6:6 than believing it is saying a saved person cannot repent after sinning.
We also see God’s forgiveness and restoration daily in our churches. Our churches have many people who were strong in the faith at one time, then leave the faith for a while, then repent of their sin and return to church and the Christian lifestyle. Is there anyone who will say that all those people, who are now valuable members of the church, are actually not saved because it was “impossible” to renew them to the faith once they left the faith? We hope not.
If this verse does not mean that it is “impossible” for someone who left the faith to be forgiven and return to God, then what does it mean? It means that it is “impossible” to renew a sinner to repentance because once a Christian repents and gets saved that salvation is permanent. It is “impossible” for the Christian to lose his salvation, so it is “impossible” for him to repent and get saved again. Every Christian can and does sin, but the sin, even egregious sin, does not cause a person to lose his salvation. Since the person’s salvation was never lost, the person cannot “renew” himself to “repentance.” Everyone can only repent and be saved one time. After that, when we sin, we can repent of our sin and be forgiven, but we do not get saved again because we never lost our salvation. Salvation is by the New Birth, and it is permanent.
What happens when a Christian sins and asks for forgiveness is clear from 1 John 1:8, 9: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These verses in 1 John assume that Christians will sin. In fact, 1 John 1:8 says that if we think we do not sin, we are deceiving ourselves. However, neither 1 John nor any other book of the New Testament has a warning such as, “Be careful! We all sin, but if you sin so horribly you fall away, you will not be able to be saved again.” No! Instead are the comforting words that if we confess our sin, God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Scholars who have studied this section of Scripture do not know why God addressed the permanence of our salvation by telling us it was impossible to be renewed to repentance. However, there are a couple possibilities we should consider. One is that there are many other places God plainly indicates that it is impossible to lose salvation. He calls it “birth,” and birth is permanent. He says our salvation is “guaranteed” (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). Furthermore, He says we are already in heaven (Eph. 2:6). Saying it is impossible to renew our repentance would be just one more way that God would tell us that our salvation is permanent.
It is also possible that given the prevailing Jewish mindset of salvation by works, the idea of a permanent salvation was very upsetting to those determined to cling to their Jewish heritage. Thus Hebrews, rather than saying anything about someone losing his salvation, states the message in the opposite terms of it being impossible to repent again. If it were possible to renew oneself to repentance, then that would be saying that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was not sufficient to cover a person’s sins once and for all, which is not the case. The one time sacrifice of Christ, and his substitution for the sinner, made that sinner righteous for all time, not just until he sinned the next time.
There is another good reason to believe that Hebrews 6:6 is about the permanence of salvation and not about a person falling away and then it being “impossible” for him to get saved again. There is no instruction in the New Testament about exactly what a Christian would have to do to fall away so completely that it would then be impossible for him to be saved again. Everyone sins, and the Word of the Lord is that to be forgiven we just confess our sin to God. If there was a sin that was so horrible that it made regaining salvation “impossible,” it surely seems that our loving Father would let us know what that was. Our earthly fathers sternly warn us about dangers, and so it certainly seems that if there was a sin from which we could not repent, our Heavenly Father would certainly warn us of it. But there is no such warning. Nowhere is the Church Epistles is a warning saying, “Do not do such and such, because if you do it will be impossible for you to regain your salvation.” That fact alone is very good evidence that this verse is not about a person losing his salvation and not being able to regain it. There is the verse about not being forgiven for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but this verse in Hebrews does not seem to be about that specific sin. Furthermore, Hebrews is written to people in the Grace Administration, when salvation is permanent, whereas Jesus was talking to people who lived before the Grace Administration started (see commentary on Ephesians 3:2).
Having given good evidence that this verse is about the permanence of salvation, there is one more thing that we have to consider as to why God has worded this verse the way He did, which seems very harsh, and that has to do with the overall context of this section. The whole section is written in a harsh way, with serious warnings for people to be faithful. For example, verses seven and eight speak of land that is blessed if it bears good fruit, but cursed if it does not. Orthodox Christian doctrine about heaven and hell has done a great disservice to Christians in that it has not given clear reasons to excel as a Christian. Many preachers teach about heaven as if “just getting in” is what matters. While it is true that there is no greater blessing anyone can have than having everlasting life, there is a lot more to consider. For one thing, we will not spend eternity in “heaven,” but on earth, and we will be subjects in the Kingdom of Christ on earth [see Appendix 3: “Christ’s Future Kingdom on Earth”]. Our “jobs” in the Kingdom will be assigned in relation to how we have lived our life on earth. If we have not been faithful, we will be there, but as Corinthians says, with nothing, just as someone who has survived a fire (cp. 1 Cor. 3:15; see commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:10). It is quite possible that a person living in the Kingdom with nothing, as if he had barely escaped a fire, is much worse than Christians generally imagine.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/commentary/Hebrews/6

Originally posted by Rajk999
He is going to post a long cut and paste explanation that will make no sense to anyone that can read. . 😀

No, I suppose you would not understand it, even though it is easy. You have blinders on, like a mule or a horse going in one direction.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
No, I suppose you would not understand it, even though it is easy. You have blinders on, like a mule or a horse going in one direction.

Im going like a mule or a horse in one direction - in the direction of Jesus Christ and his teachings. You have never seen me quote that kind of garbage explanation from false teachers. I have blinders on for stupid doctrines. I quote Christ and the Apostles only.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im going like a mule or a horse in one direction - in the direction of Jesus Christ and his teachings. You have never seen me quote that kind of garbage explanation from false teachers. I quote Christ and the Apostles only.

You ignore some of the things both say too, so don't act like you are as pure as snow here
you are not.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You ignore some of the things both say too, so don't act like you are as pure as snow here
you are not.

Like John 3: 18? I gave an explanation of that and you had no comment.

Jesus means something other that believe with your mouth. There is believe in your heart which means far more than you make it to be.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Like John 3: 18? I gave an explanation of that and you had no comment.

Jesus means something other that believe with your mouth. There is believe in your heart which means far more than you make it to be.

I reject your explanation on top of that even if your right the writer of the book is spelling out
something very important that you choose to ignore to make your pet theology work in the
face of scripture that does not support your view, that Jesus will save those that do not
know Him.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Like John 3: 18? I gave an explanation of that and you had no comment.

Jesus means something other that believe with your mouth. There is believe in your heart which means far more than you make it to be.

"There is believe in your heart which means far more than you make it to be."

I doubt you have a clue what I believe this means from your posts.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I reject your explanation on top of that even if your right the writer of the book is spelling out
something very important that you choose to ignore to make your pet theology work in the
face of scripture that does not support your view, that Jesus will save those that do not
know Him.

The Bible supports the view that :

Jesus KNOWS those that do good works and who live righteously, and Jesus will reward these with eternal life

Your view is that

Christians who claim to KNOW Jesus with their mouth, and has a relationship with Jesus [in their head], will get eternal life.

The Bible doctrine is about DOING THE WILL OF GOD.
Typical Christian doctrine is about professing to know Christ with their mouth.

Paul says Rom 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I hope you get that before it is too late.