07 Mar 19
@fmf saidYou can make a judgment call without any means to say one or more is better than another?
I have addressed your subjective use of the term "true morals" and therefore your assertion that something is "useless for morals" is just one subjectivity piled upon another subjectivity.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidYes, they do have unique moral compasses - regardless of whatever label like "Christian" you want to slap on them - just as they have unique personalities, and unique upbringings, and unique narratives, and unique spirits.
Wow, so Kelly Jay believes that a divorce in this hyperspecific situation is merited, but Sonship disagrees; this means the two of them are completely unique moral compasses.
How they see others in moral terms: different and unique. How they see themselves in moral terms: different and unique. What experiences and perspectives they draw on when they try to reach moral decisions: different and unique. How, in action and not in theory, they process or translate their religious beliefs into deeds or words: different and unique
When and when they are not deceitful: different and unique. When or how they damage others, when and why do they draw the line, how they handle the aftermath: different and unique. How much empathy do they have: different and unique.
How much generosity, charity, tolerance, flexibility, mercy, understanding, self-sacrifice, how much virtue (good acts that no one knows about), moral courage, etc. etc. ~ the list could go on and on ~ all different and unique, and all rooted in their personal subjective moral compasses that they have formed for themselves in response to their human environment since birth, and every bit as unique and as defining as their individuality and identities as human beings.
07 Mar 19
@kellyjay saidI use my moral compass just as you do.
You can make a judgment call without any means to say one or more is better than another?
For example, my moral compass incorporates ideas and imperatives that I have absorbed from religious sources, as does yours too.
Our moral compasses are for making judgement calls - that's what they are for - our moral compasses are for trying to decide which act or decision by us is better than another and to evaluate the moral decisions of others.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidIf you are comparing your moral views to another’s to see which is better, then you are using something else to justify your claims. It isn’t like you can put them on a scale to weigh them, or use a plume line or a level to see which has better lines.
I use my moral compass just as you do.
For example, my moral compass incorporates ideas and imperatives that I have absorbed from religious sources, as does yours too.
Our moral compasses are for making judgement calls - that's what they are for - our moral compasses are for trying to decide which act or decision by us is better than another and to evaluate the moral decisions of others.
07 Mar 19
@kellyjay saidBoth of us simply use our moral compasses. It's like an evaluation tool. It takes norms, values, laws, traditions, family/community pressure, religious views, etc. etc. and helps us to make our decision.
If you are comparing your moral views to another’s to see which is better, then you are using something else to justify your claims.
It isn’t like you can put them on a scale to weigh them, or use a plume line or a level to see which has better lines.
You can describe how you see your own moral compass in any way you want.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidBut why would a "moral compass" be an internal thing, when it is the corrupted nature of each human that simultaneously pushes one towards violating one's own morals..?
You seem to think that a moral compass is somehow external to a person, when in fact it is absolutely and only internal to each person. Norms, doctrines, laws, traditions and groups promoting certain moral codes, these are external.
The consistency that we ascribe to our moral systems are precisely the method to make them objective truth, and to be able to follow them regardless.
We make a "moral compass" to not rely on ourselves.
But this is all down to personal interpretations now.
And I am showing where my morality comes from: by God, and things external to me.
And you are showing where your morality comes from: only from yourself.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidOf course not. Have you not read any of my posts?
And you are showing where your morality comes from: only from yourself.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidTurkey isn't really under threat of this. It has become more conservative. So has Russia, and in some ways, so has Korea.
What do you propose that Turkey should do to prevent Turks from being atheists or preventing any or all Turks from modifying or getting rid of certain norms?
We will also see the West become more conservative over the coming years. Already, the resurgence of ethnonationalism has been occurring, and we will soon see the "Alt Lite" narrative become increasingly important.
But...
If I was under the belief that there was a nefarious Wesernization process, the best way to combat it is through simply having a counter-narrative and mocking the West.
The West is not so powerful anymore -- perhaps the narratives of the 90s were sensible and people could be sucked in, but the narrative currently is just pretty universally unpalatable. It's even driving WEsterners to more conservative expressions.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidI suggest you take your subjective perception of what the "objective truth" is and, with your moral compass as your guide, promote whatever you want to promote in terms of laws and norms and traditions.
The consistency that we ascribe to our moral systems are precisely the method to make them objective truth, and to be able to follow them regardless.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidBut this really isn't true.
Yes, they do have unique moral compasses - regardless of whatever label like "Christian" you want to slap on them - just as they have unique personalities, and unique upbringings, and unique narratives, and unique spirits.
How they see others in moral terms: different and unique. How they see themselves in moral terms: different and unique. What experiences and perspectives t ...[text shortened]... irth, and every bit as unique and as defining as their individuality and identities as human beings.
The fact that my arm has a different pattern of freckles on it than another person's arm does not mean that my arm is unique.
When two people's moral systems line up 99%, why not just consider them the same.
Why does everything have to regress infinitely into atomization.
I'm not unique; I'm not special; I'm not a snowflake. I am doing my best to be in line with the proper way of analyzing things from a Christian perspective.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidIn many ways, because there are no laws to govern most of our interactions with others, we have to rely on ourselves and this is what our moral compasses are for.
We make a "moral compass" to not rely on ourselves.
And our moral compasses draw on all manner of internal and external moral resources so that we can calibrate our decisions and actions and take personal responsibility for them.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidI believe it is - for the reasons I have been laying out.
But this really isn't true.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidThe debate is not about if we have different moral compasses, I don’t think anyone has suggesting that isn’t true. What separates you and I is what our true morals compasses are looking for, the true morals Difficult to call one better or worse without some true means to measure.
Both of us simply use our moral compasses. It's like an evaluation tool. It takes norms, values, laws, traditions, family/community pressure, religious views, etc. etc. and helps us to make our decision.
It isn’t like you can put them on a scale to weigh them, or use a plume line or a level to see which has better lines.
You can describe how you see your own moral compass in any way you want.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidIf you believed Turkey was "under threat" from what you said, what would you propose that the nation should do to prevent its people from being atheists or preventing the norms of Turks from evolving?
Turkey isn't really under threat of this.