What is it to be human?

@philokalia said
Nobody's individual "moral compass" is a "noble path."

The moral compass is what a person uses to try to take a noble path.

@philokalia said
We are born into a fallen world with base desires... And if we ever get to the point of having moral excellence, it comes through the externalization of the moral code.

I'm not interested in your pessimistic and misanthropic outlook.

@philokalia said
... How can values "evolve" if there is no such thing as progress..?

Or is there such a thing as progress?

Or does evolution not mean "progress?" It just means "change?"

Norms and values change. Traditions change. Religions - or more to the point, their adherents - change. Cultures change. Morality is not a fixed phenomenon. And it never has been.

@fmf said
If you believed Turkey was "under threat" from the things you described a few pages back [anarchy and atheism etc.], what would you propose that the nation should do to prevent its people from being atheists or to prevent the norms of Turks from evolving?

Philokalia, I take it that last facetious post of yours means you are sidestepping this question?

@philokalia said
The implication is that in a godless world there is no set value that is judged to be the ultimate.

There hasn't been any god or gods that have given us any moral instructions. So when it comes to morality, all codes, and laws, and commandments, and "truths" and "ultimate" this that and the other, are all products of culture.

Your Orthodox whatnot is just culture. My Catholic upbringing and midlife was a cultural process. Hebrews killing each other over diet and cloth choices was culture. 'Slavery is OK' [or even economically good] was culture. 'Slavery is bad' is culture. Capital punishment is right/is wrong is culture.

We may have been created by a creator being, but people appealing to gods to add steel to their religious doctrines does not get us away from the fact that we do live in a godless world.

Maybe one day the creator will reveal Himself and his wishes. In the meantime we merely have culture to help us organize ourselves.

@fmf said
Norms and values change. Traditions change. Religions - or more to the point, their adherents - change. Cultures change. Morality is not a fixed phenomenon. And it never has been.

... so by "evolve," you only mean change, correct?

You aren't suggesting that things become morally superior over time.

Because if that is the case, how would we ever say there is an objective morality by which we would measure as much...?

You catch my drift?

@fmf said
I'm not interested in your pessimistic and misanthropic outlook.

Lol, ok.

Was this really a necessary post?

@fmf said
There hasn't been any god or gods that have given us any moral instructions. So when it comes to morality, all codes, and laws, and commandments, and "truths" and "ultimate" this that and the other, are all products of culture.

Your Orthodox whatnot is just culture. My Catholic upbringing and midlife was a cultural process. Hebrews killing each other over diet and cloth choic ...[text shortened]... reveal Himself and his wishes. In the meantime we merely have culture to help us organize ourselves.

... While I do not agree with this, at least you have some concept that values and morality are embedded and transmitted through institutions within the culture, right.

Now that we have the horse facing some water, let's see if he will drink?

Isn't it vital to the health of a society to follow a good culture?

And... doesn't an objective good more or less exist in your mind, one which is agreeable to most others as well..?

And... aren't these the norms advanced by Christianity?

@philokalia said
Was this really a necessary post?

Absolutely. A fair few Christians here suddenly - in the middle of discussions - ooze pessimistic and misanthropic outlooks or express some impatient doomsdayism. It's necessary to let you know that it has no effect as a 'debating point'.

@philokalia said
... so by "evolve," you only mean change, correct?

You aren't suggesting that things become morally superior over time.

Because if that is the case, how would we ever say there is an objective morality by which we would measure as much...?

You catch my drift?

The only "drift" here is that you are dodging my straightforward question about Turkey, it seems. So be it. That's

@philokalia said
... While I do not agree with this, at least you have some concept that values and morality are embedded and transmitted through institutions within the culture, right.

Have you not been reading my posts?

@philokalia said
doesn't an objective good more or less exist in your mind, one which is agreeable to most others as well..?

No. My moral compass is a subjective mechanism. So is yours.

@fmf said
Absolutely. A fair few Christians here suddenly - in the middle of discussions - ooze pessimistic and misanthropic outlooks or express some impatient doomsdayism. It's necessary to let you know that it has no effect as a 'debating point'.

Well, we are the people that, in the midst of great advancements in science and technology, Holocausted & Holodomor'd our way through the twentieth century.

And aren't we now destroying the environemnt at an unprecented rate?

Let it be remembered that, on this day, it was the liberal egalitarian who asked to stop the self-flagellation.

@philokalia said
And... aren't these the norms advanced by Christianity?

I have absorbed plenty of norms from Christianity; I have mentioned it repeatedly. Christianity is a key part of my personal narrative and so is a key contributor to my moral compass. Did you not read that in any of my posts?

@fmf said
The only "drift" here is that you are dodging my straightforward question about Turkey, it seems. So be it. That's

I will make a post about preventing societal decay some time, sure. But that's a long post.

But I thought i had already answered it briefly: "Present a counter-narrative and mock the West."