07 Mar 19
@fmf said... And isn't it true that
I have absorbed plenty of norms from Christianity; I have mentioned it repeatedly. Christianity is a key part of my personal narrative and so is a key contributor to my moral compass. Did you not read that in any of my posts?
every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued?
Isn't it true that we should not live with artificial hierarchies, we should be humble, we shouldn't be arrogant, we should always be forgiving, etc..?
That even the handicapped and the diseased have a special place in our society, and have no less dignity than those who are of sound health and mind...?
Etc.?
You see, you value these things very much, and these are like objective truths to you, because they really are objective truths, and these really are the laws of God brought from heaven by Christ, and without them nothing really makes sense.
This is called the "presuppositional argument."
I figure we should just cut to the chase.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidI think there is plenty of empirical evidence to support optimism and plenty of reason to be non-misanthropic rather than misanthropic, so the post that you thought was perhaps not necessary, was necessary I think. Whatever floats your boats. A lot of Christians are fatalistic and defeatist and get succour and confirmation bias from their religious beliefs.
Well, we are the people that, in the midst of great advancements in science and technology, Holocausted & Holodomor'd our way through the twentieth century.
And aren't we now destroying the environemnt at an unprecented rate?
Let it be remembered that, on this day, it was the liberal egalitarian who asked to stop the self-flagellation.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidYeah, you did make a thread about that.
I think there is plenty of empirical evidence to support optimism and plenty of reason to be non-misanthropic rather than misanthropic, so the post that you thought was perhaps not necessary, was necessary I think. Whatever floats your boats. A lot of Christians are fatalistic and defeatist and get succour and confirmation bias from their religious beliefs.
But could you ever say, with a straight face, that our track record in the 20th century was not rather horrible?
The exact thing that propelled so much of our development was our yearning to kill each other better, FMF.
The men who threw minorities in ovens & destroyed half of Europe were the most educated and scientific Germans that had lived up to that point. The men who enslaved half the world up to that point were also the most educated and scientific minds up to that point.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidI don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. You talk about " the laws of God brought from heaven by Christ". Well, I don't believe that is what happened, but you can if you want to.
... And isn't it true that
every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued?
Isn't it true that we should not live with artificial hierarchies, we should be humble, we shouldn't be arrogant, we should always be forgiving, etc..?
That even the handicapped and the diseased have a special place in our society, and h ...[text shortened]... [/i]
This is called the "presuppositional argument."
I figure we should just cut to the chase.
I haven't claimed there are any "objective truths" with regard to what we are talking about. If you think I have, show me the post.
But I don't have any objection to absorbing and synthesizing what the Christian tradition has handed down to us. I will take personal responsibility for whatever effect it has on me in terms of my actions.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidWhy would I say it?
But could you ever say, with a straight face, that our track record in the 20th century was not rather horrible?
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidYou are pessimistic. I get it. A lot of people here are. It's your prerogative.
The men who threw minorities in ovens & destroyed half of Europe were the most educated and scientific Germans that had lived up to that point. The men who enslaved half the world up to that point were also the most educated and scientific minds up to that point.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidI haven't been "attacking" anything.
Outline what you are attacking and attack it, or maybe just make some final post about how you think you did a good job.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidAnd just moments ago, in response to this:
You are pessimistic. I get it. A lot of people here are. It's your prerogative.
every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued?
You stated that you cannot say that there is any such objective truth.
I assert that there is.
I think that, in reality, to not actively assert this is pessimistic.
Sure, I get it: you do not believe God came to earth.
And ebcause of that, you cannot believe there is objective truth to that statement, yet nothing in your life or understanding of the world will actually make sense without accepting this as a reality.
In short: Existence is rather absurd without a God.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidThat's right. It's not an "objective truth". My beliefs about human worth and dignity are personal opinions of mine that are the product of my moral compass and they are beliefs that shape my behaviour and decisions.
And just moments ago, in response to this:
every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued?
You stated that you cannot say that there is any such objective truth.
A related "objective truth" would be this: "some people believe that every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued"; and another one would be this: "some people do not believe that every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued".
I believe I am part of the first group and you have said things which suggest you are part of the second group.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidOh. Gosh. What do you believe that makes me?
In short: Existence is rather absurd without a God.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidBut I don't. So whether I "cannot" is moot.
And ebcause of that, you [i]cannot believe there is objective truth to that statement
@divegeester saidI think he may have wanted the word "milquetoast" to stop me in my tracks.
It looks like philokalia really wants to have the last word today.
07 Mar 19
@fmf saidI’ve noticed that he likes to pull unusual words out of a book he’s read. He’s doing it over in Debates at the moment where he is currently defending his bigotry against homosexuals in describing them as being mentally deranged by claiming they are still created in the image of God.
I think he may have wanted the word "milquetoast" to stop me in my tracks.
He is also explaining to No1marauder, a dyed in the wool hard atheist, why I am a heretic.
It’s good stuff.
07 Mar 19
@philokalia saidFor someone who claims to have studied philosophy you are not very good at critical thinking.
And just moments ago, in response to this:
every human being has an immense amount of value and should not have their dignity devalued?
You stated that you cannot say that there is any such objective truth.
I assert that there is.
I think that, in reality, to not actively assert this is pessimistic.
Sure, I get it: you do not believe God ca ...[text shortened]... thout accepting this as a reality.[/i]
In short: Existence is rather absurd without a God.
Here you are claiming that there is an objective truth about “God coming to earth” when there is absolutely no objective evidence that this happened. Belief and faith are subjective experiences.