03 Mar 19
@kellyjay said"Nope"?
Nope, even Paul when he spoke about his own righteousness rejected everything about himself when it came to his own righteousness. Nothing we bring to God is going to be good enough, we all need Him, none of us deserve His grace it is meritless not earned.
You said "Christ cleans us, gives us His Spirit, and changes us."
And I ask: Do you believe you are 'cleaner' than non-Christians?
So, do you believe Christ "cleans" non-Christians?
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidI guess it depends on the person who is making the claim. I can see fully human is when we become what we were designed to be in the first place, and being less than that is when we are not, instead we are sinners living lives that fall short. They could also mean other things too, but that would be my take.
Some Christians talk about people being "human" [obviously] but then about Christians being "fully human". It's an idea that has been propagated on this forum. What do you make of that?
03 Mar 19
@kellyjay saidDoes you replying unnecessarily to a post of mine that wasn't even addressed to you and that came after my answers to your question mean that - in your mind - you have responded to my efforts to answer to your question about "humanity"?
I asked for your opinion I'm not going to bad mouth you for it.
03 Mar 19
@kellyjay saidSo what I put to you was this: Some Christians talk about people being "human" [obviously] but then about Christians being "fully human". It's an idea that has been propagated on this forum.
I can see fully human is when we become what we were designed to be in the first place, and being less than that is when we are not, instead we are sinners living lives that fall short. They could also mean other things too, but that would be my take.
Does your 'answer' above mean you agree with it or disagree with it?
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidIn Christ yes, that is the only way anyone will be clean before God, outside of Christ was are equally guilty. If it is our own righteousness we will not make it, those that depend on their own actions, their own righteousness and not their walk with Jesus Christ are in the same boat are that religious person who Jesus talked about in one of His parables. Christ can and will clean all of those that come to Him, but if you don't, He will not.
"Nope"?
You said "Christ cleans us, gives us His Spirit, and changes us."
And I ask: Do you believe you are 'cleaner' than non-Christians?
So, do you believe Christ "cleans" non-Christians?
Luke 18:11-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
1 Peter 4:18
And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidI told you my thoughts on the topic. If they line up with what you think others mean that it totally up to you not me.
So what I put to you was this: Some Christians talk about people being "human" [obviously] but then about Christians being "fully human". It's an idea that has been propagated on this forum.
Does your 'answer' above mean you agree with it or disagree with it?
03 Mar 19
1 edit
@bigdoggproblem saidThat tree was our down fall, God knows about the knowledge of good and evil, man didn't until they ate of it. Now we are experiencing good and evil, and the evil experiences are by both the things we see, and the things we do. Now we spend a lot of time trying to call this good or that, and we act as if we are the absolute in this realm of deciding what is and isn't good today. Our calls about this or that justify what we do and say in our own eyes, no matter what it is we think we are calling good or bad.
We are a mix of reason and passion; of the primal, and the logical.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil can be thought of as a metaphor for the birth of reason in humans. Gone were the days when we could simply follow the varied urges to eat, sleep, protect our tribe, mate, etc. and not worry about much else. Reason evolved - we "ate from the tree" - and now ...[text shortened]... .
At least we've got a sense of humor to give us some relief from all the weighty considerations.
03 Mar 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI thought I was talking to you. 🙂
If you knew the immensity of what it means to be human, you would not talk about God or Heaven.
Jaggi Vasudev
03 Mar 19
@kellyjay saidI'll try again and I'll be a bit more explicit this time.
I told you my thoughts on the topic. If they line up with what you think others mean that it totally up to you not me.
Grampy Bobby used to make a distinction between being human on one hand and being "fully human" on the other.
He did not consider atheists [and non-Christians] to be the latter.
He believed and asserted that being "fully human" was dependent on having "a relationship" with the Christian God.
There were no dissenting voices among the other Christians here on this forum in the face of this theological claim about "humanity" back then [aside from divegeester and, if I recall correctly, CalJust], so that silence meant whatever it meant.
Eladar agreed with Grampy Bobby, describing non-Christians as "already dead" [and so, presumably, no longer humans].
Do you agree with Grampy Bobby's belief or disagree with it?
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidYou can imply whatever you want, it doesn't make it so. I don't respond to every post I agree with or disagree with that I see. I also don't look at every post here either, so if you don't see me responding, it doesn't mean squat about my agreeing with it or not.
The Christians who expressed no dissent at that time are still here. They could even respond to his unusual ideas now if they chose to, or they could imply endorsement through their inability or unwillingness to comment.