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20 Jul 16
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Wow, you don't give up. God appeared to Abraham in a human form, but it does not mean it was Jesus.
Why would you suggest that God appeared as a man in Genesis 18 but the man in the four Gospels is NOT God incarnate ? That doesn't make sense to me.
What reason would you possibly have for admitting the divine man in Genesis 18 is God but Jesus Christ Who clearly proclaimed and lived as God become a man is not ?
checkbaiter writes:
God can appear as anyone, but it is not His true form, He is spirit.
Jesus is a man and now has a glorified body like we will.
Let's not hijack another thread please.
Quite so. I will open up this new thread on the Triune God.
You can participate if you wish.
God can appear as anyone,
Isn't it strange that you say God could appear as anyone, yet when the New Testament says He is incarnated in Jesus Christ, you hedge?
It seems as if you are teaching God could appear as anyone except Jesus Christ. What hinders you from believing that Christ is God-man ?
Is it that you think the Apostle John really didn't know too much and needed some instruction from you on who Jesus is ?
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20 Jul 16
" Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not sen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)
BELIEVED WHAT ?
What was it that Jesus confirmed to Thomas's belief ?
Blessed are those who BELIEVE WHAT ?
Thomas believed the truth and the revelation of the entire Gospel John. Jesus Christ is Lord and God.
"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God."
What Thomas finally came to believe was that his Lord Jesus Christ was God.
Jesus calls him blessed not for being in error but for believing the reality.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Lord and God.
Not all will be so privileged as to place their hands in the wounds of His resurrected body. But those who do not see but hear the Gospel can also share in the blessing of realizing Jesus the Lord is God.
20 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship[b] " Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not sen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)
BELIEVED WHAT ?
What was it that Jesus confirmed to Thomas's belief ?
Blessed are those who BELIEVE WHAT ?
Thomas believed the tru ...[text shortened]... o not see but hear the Gospel can also share in the blessing of realizing Jesus the Lord is God.[/b]So you refuse to even look at my post about why are there insects if there was a ww flood.
The Trinity should be discussed because its implications are more important than some may realize.
If.....Jesus is NOT God, but being worshipped as God, then the 1st Commandment is being broken. It is critical to get this right!
Since Jesus himself never made the claim that He is God....in a clear fashion....then the gamble is high. The followers of the Trinity would be wise to make sure of the exact identity of Jesus before breaking the 1st Commandment.
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20 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipWow, you don't give up. God appeared to Abraham in a human form, but it does not mean it was Jesus.
Why would you suggest that God appeared as a man in [b]Genesis 18 but the man in the four Gospels is NOT God incarnate ? That doesn't make sense to me.
What reason would you possibly have for admitting the divine man in ...[text shortened]... Apostle John really didn't know too much and needed some instruction from you on who Jesus is ?
Isn't it strange that you say God could appear as anyone, yet when the New Testament says He is incarnated in Jesus Christ, you hedge?
The New Testament does not say He is incarnated.
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20 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship[b] " Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not sen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)
BELIEVED WHAT ?
What was it that Jesus confirmed to Thomas's belief ?
Blessed are those who BELIEVE WHAT ?
Thomas believed the tru ...[text shortened]... o not see but hear the Gospel can also share in the blessing of realizing Jesus the Lord is God.[/b]BELIEVED WHAT ?
That it was Jesus.
"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God."
We have been over this....
The name God is given to many people. It does not mean Thomas thought he was God, just that he was God's highest representative.
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20 Jul 16
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
The name God is given to many people. It does not mean Thomas thought he was God, just that he was God's highest representative.
On the contrary. John 20:28,29 is the climax of John's prologue and Gospel. The underlying concept of the book is that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14).
The Evangelist puts this conversation immediately before his first conclusion to the Gospel strategically because it confirms the theme of the book. Jesus, needs no genealogy like Luke gives or Matthew gives because God is uncreated, eternal, ever existing and self existing. To speak of the parents of God is impossible.
So this last Gospel begins with the Word Who was with God and was God.
Mark contains no genealogy because Mark's chief burden is that Jesus came as a Slave - a Servant to serve us. A Slave requires no genealogy either.
Immediately following "Doubting" Thomas's confession and Jesus confirming his confession John's first ending commences -
" Moreover indeed many other signs Jesus did before His disciples which are not written in this book.
But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing, you may have life in His name." (v.31)
So concludes the Gospel of John except for a necessary epilogue of chapter 21.
The grand finale of John - the Lord Jesus is God.
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20 Jul 16
Consider this verse. Tell me why this is so....
Ps 110:1
The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
NKJV
The first word translated “LORD” with all capital letters is the Hebrew word “Adonai” This word “LORD” is usually a translation of the Hebrew “Yahweh” which is God’s personal name.
But in some manuscripts “Adonai”, a title, was substituted for “Yahweh” from fear of using God’s name in vain. And “Adonai” is only ever used for the one true God in the Old Testament (about 450 times).
The second word translated “Lord” (with a capital “L” and then all small letters) is the Hebrew word “Adoni”. You may have to use a concordance or a Greek/Hebrew inter linear to see this.
Notice the difference? “Adonai” ends in “ai” and “Adoni” ends in “I”. The title “Adoni” is used only for human beings who are superior to other human beings and never of God/Yahweh (for example Gen. 44:7, Num. 32:25, 2 Kings 2:19). “The form ADONI ‘my lord’, a royal title (1 Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the title ADONAI ‘my LORD’ used of Yahweh.”
Now you tell me, if God wanted me to believe he was Jesus, what are the two usages of this word there for?
Do you think he just wants to confuse people?
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20 Jul 16
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Checkbaiter, you protested about the pre-existence of Christ. But in this Gospel John the Baptist says that Jesus, Whom John introduced, was before him.
" John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me." (John 1:15)
Isn't that wonderful ? Jesus Christ takes priority over John the Baptist because "HE WAS BEFORE ME" says John.
John was conceived and born ahead of Jesus. He means that Jesus is the pre-existing Son of God.
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20 Jul 16
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Originally posted by checkbaiterWith more time I will look into the matter you raise.
My Recovery Version has this translation -
"Jehovah declares to my Lord, Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." (v.1)
I don't know about the New King James Version. But my favorite English translation The Recovery Version neutralizes you complaint below.
The first word translated “LORD” with all capital letters is the Hebrew word “Adonai” This word “LORD” is usually a translation of the Hebrew “Yahweh” which is God’s personal name.
Yahweh - Jehovah - the personal name of God is indicated in the RcV.
Now I would draw your attention to that fact that the Lord in Psalm 110 is made a Priest FOREVER . That is a PRIEST not just during the church age. That is not just a PRIEST during the millennial kingdom. That is a PRIEST FOREVER - a promise for which God will not change.
"Jehovah has sworn, And He will not change.
You are a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Psalm 110:4)
The One of Whom God is speaking is God incarnate - God-man.
You said I am persistent? Yes I am. Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man.
Incidently, when Jesus refers to this passage, the critics were stomped and could answer Him nothing. They did not bring up your modern day protest.
" .. What do you think concerning the Christ? Whose son is He ?
They said to Him, David's
He said to them, How then does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies underneath Your feet?'
If then David calls Him Lord, how is He his son?
And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone from that day dare to question Him anymore." (Matt. 22:42-46)
The Pharisees did not use any of the argument that you mentioned.
The way Jesus used the passage as referring to the Messianic Son of David it proves that the Son of God is pre-existent.
If He was not pre-existent He could not be David's Lord so that David calls Him "my Lord". This has to mean that before the birth of Jesus from the virgin He was the Lord of David and will be David's descendant.
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20 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipPoor translation. Here is a more accurate trans., you can look at a concordance to prove it.
Checkbaiter, you protested about the pre-existence of Christ. But in this Gospel [b]John the Baptist says that Jesus, Whom John introduced, was before him.
[quote] " John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me." (John 1:15) [ ...[text shortened]...
John was conceived and born ahead of Jesus. He means that Jesus is the pre-existing Son of God.
John testified about him, and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one coming after me has advanced in front of me, because he ranks ahead of me.’”
The simple truth is that the Messiah does, and always did, rank ahead of John. This verse, and John 1:30 are sometimes used to support the Trinity because the verse can be translated, “because he [Jesus] was before me” [John], and it is assumed that the verse is saying that Jesus existed before John the Baptist. In fact, a number of modern versions translate the last phrase something like, “because he [Jesus] existed before me.” However, there is no reason to bring the Trinity into this verse, and there are very good reasons that it does not refer to the Trinity in any way.
REV
20 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterThe bickering about "subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma" always reminds me of the story about the argument between Jesus and the Pharisees except that the Trinity argument comes across like two different kinds of Pharisees bickering with each other. If the ideological issue has no bearing on "salvation" or on how one lives a Christian life, it's not clear to me why Christians spend so much time arguing over such an inconsequential and abstract piece of theology.
I for one say no. I don't know what Sonship believes.