What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

Originally posted by FMF
The bickering about "subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma" always reminds me of the story about the argument between Jesus and the Pharisees except that the Trinity argument comes across like two different kinds of Pharisees bickering with each other. If the ideological issue has no bearing on "salvation" or on how one lives a ...[text shortened]... ristians spend so much time arguing over such an inconsequential and abstract piece of theology.

I for one debate the accuracy of bible definitions, and against traditional dogma.
As long as anyone has Jesus as their Lord or Master, the Trinity is irrelevant.
But having said that, I think God would like people to know who he is and who Jesus is.
They are not one and the same.

Originally posted by sonship

Wow, you don't give up. God appeared to Abraham in a human form, but it does not mean it was Jesus.

Why would you suggest that God appeared as a man in [b]Genesis 18 but the man in the four Gospels is NOT God incarnate ? That doesn't make sense to me.

What reason would you possibly have for admitting the divine man in ...[text shortened]... Apostle John really didn't know too much and needed some instruction from you on who Jesus is ?

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

Acts 5:30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by
hanging him on a cross.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

John 10:16-18King James Version (KJV)
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I for one debate the accuracy of bible definitions, and against traditional dogma.
As long as anyone has Jesus as their Lord or Master, the Trinity is irrelevant.
But having said that, I think God would like people to know who he is and who Jesus is.
They are not one and the same.

Considering you believe "the Trinity is irrelevant", it's interesting to see how much time yous spend debating it, whilst never saying anything meaningful or persuasive or inspiring or useful - as far as I can remember - about actually living a Christian life... in so far as it exists beyond arid, pedantic, joyless textural analysis and assuming stances on ideology [regurgitating scripture and bickering with other ideologues doesn't count]. You remind of academic Marxists from rival schools of thought who don't have the first idea of what to talk about when in the company of ordinary people whose interests they profess to champion.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I for one debate the accuracy of bible definitions, and against traditional dogma.
As long as anyone has Jesus as their Lord or Master, the Trinity is irrelevant.
But having said that, I think God would like people to know who he is and who Jesus is.
They are not one and the same.

What if the 1st Commandment is being broken by making Jesus 'God', if in fact he's not?
That would not be irrelevant, and would make the trinity doctrine very relevant to get right. It would matter if one cares about the commandments.
But from what I sense, once Jesus came along, the OT has been primarily pushed aside.
Churches now give out little red bibles with the NT only.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I for one say no. I don't know what Sonship believes.

Sonship has clearly stated that those who do not subscribe to the 'deity of Christ' [ie that Jesus is God and = to God] are not welcome in his Church.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

Acts 5:30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by
hanging him on a cross.

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spi ...[text shortened]... o lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Amen all the way.

I turned my heart to the Lord in all those wonderful verses and enjoyed truth and the God of truth.

Originally posted by sonship

The name God is given to many people. It does not mean Thomas thought he was God, just that he was God's highest representative.

On the contrary. [b]John 20:28,29 is the climax of John's prologue and Gospel. The underlying concept of the book is that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14).

The Evangelist puts this conversation immed ...[text shortened]... a necessary epilogue of chapter 21.
The grand finale of John - the Lord Jesus is God.[/b]

Apart from you missing what Thomas was doubting and you going off in a tangent of false doctrines, Johns grand finale is :

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

That you cannot repeat what John said is proof that your mind is twisted by false doctrines, which force you to say " .. the Lord Jesus is God"

A five yr old can see the difference between what John says and what you say John says.

Originally posted by FMF
Considering you believe "the Trinity is irrelevant", it's interesting to see how much time yous spend debating it, whilst never saying anything meaningful or persuasive or inspiring or useful - as far as I can remember - about actually living a Christian life... in so far as it exists beyond arid, pedantic, joyless textural analysis and assuming stances on ideol ...[text shortened]... t to talk about when in the company of ordinary people whose interests they profess to champion.

You must be really missing Grampy Bobby to be randomly spewing your venom at other people.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Poor translation. Here is a more accurate trans., you can look at a concordance to prove it.

John testified about him, and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one coming after me has advanced in front of me, because he ranks ahead of me.’”

The simple truth is that the Messiah does, and always did, rank ahead of John. This verse, and John 1:30 are sometimes used to support the Trinity because the verse can be translated, “because he [Jesus] was before me” [John], and it is assumed that the verse is saying that Jesus existed before John the Baptist. In fact, a number of modern versions translate the last phrase something like, “because he [Jesus] existed before me.” However, there is no reason to bring the Trinity into this verse, and there are very good reasons that it does not refer to the Trinity in any way.

REV

My bolding below - http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-30.htm

Benson Commentary

John 1:30-34. This is he, &c. — I now point out to you the very person of whom I formerly said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me — Being incomparably greater and more excellent than I; for he was — That is, he existed; before me — Dr. Hammond abundantly vindicates this interpretation. Had πρωτος, rendered before, signified chief here, as in some other places, εστι, is, not ην, was, would have been joined with it, and John would have said he is, and not he was, my chief, which would have been a very flat tautology instead of a reason; whereas Christ’s having existed before John, though he was born after him, was a most convincing proof that he was a very extraordinary person, and was the strongest reason that could well have been assigned, to show that he was worthy of their superior regard.

My spacing and bolding and emphasis below for clarity http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-30.htm

Expositor's Greek Testament

John 1:30. οὗτος … πρῶτός μου ἦν. Pointing to Jesus he identifies Him with the person of whom he had previously said ὀπίσω μοῦ, etc. Cf. John 1:15. “After me comes a man who is before me because He was before me.”

The A.V[30] “which is before me” is preferable though not so literal as the R.V[31] “which is become before me”. The words mean: “Subsequent to me in point of time comes a man who has gained a place in advance of me, because He was eternally prior to me”.—ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεται refers rather to space than to time, “after me,” but with the notion of immediacy, close behind, following upon.

This understanding fits John's prologue of the Word pre-existing all creation. And when He came to earth His own creatures - the world, did not recognize Him.

" He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. " (John 1:10)

There is no argument. The One Who was "in the world" was the Creator of the world. And the world did not know Him. He was indeed before the creature John the Baptist.

Then it says that specifically Israel did not receive Him though He was their Yahweh - their Jehovah God

"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him." (John 1:11)

Jesus Christ is before and pre-existent to John the Baptist in this chapter because all things came into being through this One who came into the world.

Compare:

" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (v.3)

"He was in the world, and the world CAME INTO BEING THROUGH HIM, yet the world did not know Him." (v.10)

The Gospel writer reiterates this crucial truth by recording that John the Baptist confessed that " He WAS before me."

John is unworthy to loose His sandels - He is preeminent, true.
But also He as the Creator is now in the world and pre-existed them all, including John.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Apart from you missing what Thomas was doubting and you going off in a tangent of false doctrines, Johns grand finale is :

[b] Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

That you cannot repeat what John said is proof that your mind is twisted by false doctrines, which force you to say " .. the Lord Jesus is God"

A five yr old can see the difference between what John says and what you say John says.[/b]

I agree with you that the last thing John writes there is that Jesus is the Son of God.
I was faithful to quote that.

However, the preceding conversation with Thomas means that Jesus the Lord, the Son of God - is God. He is the Lord of Thomas. He is the God of Thomas. And all else throughout the ages who ALSO thus believe, Jesus says, are blessed.

He is God gone through a kind of process of incarnation, human living, death and resurrection that He might be dispensed into man as life - "that you may have LIFE in His name."

John the Baptist admits that Jesus pre-existed him. He is not only more important but He was in the world that He created and which did not recognize Him.

"He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him." (v.10)

Checkbaiter has to argue that John the Baptist needs to correct John the Gospel writer. This is absurd.

Rather John the Baptist and John the Gospel writer must agree. Before John the Baptist, in fact before the world, the Word was with God and the Word was God.

When "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" this Person was "in the world".

Yes, the man Jesus had a birth. But the Person of Who He is is the Creator through Whom the world came into being - quite pre-existing to it and John the Baptist.

Is there an argument that can defeat this? No. I don't think there is. God is desiring to dispense His life into man.

" In Him was life and the life was the the light of men." (v.4)

To receive this Person Jesus, the Son of God, is to receive the Uncreated Divine Person Who is divine life. Behind all life and lives is one Uncreated Life - a Person very mysterious a Trinity, Who comes to be imparted into man to be eternal life to man.

Man, after all, in the fall was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)

Originally posted by Suzianne
You must be really missing Grampy Bobby to be randomly spewing your venom at other people.

An advocate on one side in the argument has admitted "As long as anyone has Jesus as their Lord or Master, the Trinity is irrelevant." I think it's a very interesting comment in view of how many umpteen thousands of posts are devoted to it in this community. Makes one wonder what it's really all about. It sometimes seems purely ideological and not really spiritual (in any practical way) at all. I don't see this remarking on this baffling state of affairs as being "venom" at all.

Originally posted by FMF
An advocate on one side in the argument has admitted "As long as anyone has Jesus as their Lord or Master, the Trinity is irrelevant." I think it's a very interesting comment in view of how many umpteen thousands of posts are devoted to it in this community. Makes one wonder what it's really all about. It sometimes seems purely ideological and not really spiritu ...[text shortened]... y) at all. I don't see this remarking on this baffling state of affairs as being "venom" at all.

There is plenty of post on practical spirituality. You just don't want to take the practical helps.

I started a thread on "Calling Lord, Lord" It was very basic and very practical.

I started a thread on "Prayreading the Word". It is very practical.

I started a thread way back which had something to do with realizing that without Grace in Christ we just cannot make it to live godly. It was called something like "we Just Cannot Make It" or something like that. That thread too was very practical. It was vehemently opposed by Rajk999.

I started a thread on "The Constitution of the Kingdom" on the book of Matthew. It too is very practical.

Practical helps have often been offered.
I just wrote a minute ago a practical post to finnigan in response to his bitter sarcasm that a fickle God has to be in a good mood to save him.

I have written our prayers to practically suggest how one may approach a spiritual problem with God. These were based on my successful experience and the successful experience of other Christians.

There has been practical spiritual helps. You didn't want any and still don't it appears.

Your question above to me was essentially - "So if you don't have this Trinity dogma you're not saved."

This thread is about the Triune God in revelation and experience. It is not intended to be doctrinal agreement for the sake of doctrinal agreement. It is a help to experience God. And for that the realization of God in Christ is vital.

God is mysterious, profound and hard to explain. But God is experiential and enjoyable. As far as I can see in the Bible all the writing about Father - Son - Holy Spirit has its aim in bringing us into the experience of God.

Each is described as God.

Originally posted by sonship
I agree with you that the last thing John writes there is that Jesus is the Son of God.
I was faithful to quote that.

However, the preceding conversation with Thomas means that Jesus the Lord, the Son of God - is God. He is the Lord of Thomas. He is the God of Thomas. And all else throughout the ages who ALSO thus believe, Jesus says, are blessed. ...[text shortened]... tion that He might be dispensed into man as life - [b]"that you may have LIFE in His name." [/b]

Jesus said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. For me personally I would apply that principle not to righteousness only but also to understanding of Jesus and who he was.

So my understanding is not based on what others say about Christ, but what Christ says about himself. I would not allow statements made by the Pharisees [that Jesus is God], or statements made by Thomas { that Jesus is God], override what Jesus himself said that God is his Father and he is the Son and that God is GREATER than him. Jesus is my authority and my guide.

Probably for you, Thomas, the Pharisees, Watchman Lee etc are your guides and your authorities.

Originally posted by Rajk999

So my understanding is not based on what others say about Christ, but what Christ says about himself. I would not allow statements made by the Pharisees [that Jesus is God], or statements made by Thomas { that Jesus is God], override what Jesus himself said that God is his Father and he is the Son. Jesus is my authority and my guide.

Probably for you, Thomas, the Pharisees, Watchman Lee etc are your guides and your authorities.

This sounds good. But Jesus Himself indicated when others were speaking the truth ABOUT Him.

For example He confirmed that Peter was right to call Him the Christ the Son of the living God.

For example He even told the high priest that he was correct to call Him the Son of the Blessed.

For example He confirmed when Nathaniel called Him the Son of God.

For example He confirmed when Thomas called Him his Lord and his God.

And concerning self testimony He said that He was the I AM who was before Abraham.

" Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I sau to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am." (John 8:58)

So out of the mouth of Jesus He is the great I am of Exodus 3 Who appeared to Moses and was before Abraham.

Are you so foolish as to not receive those whom Jesus sent as apostles ?
John says the Word was with God and was God.
Are you refusing whom Jesus has sent to teach you?

He said those who receive whom He has sent receive Him.

" He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." (Matt. 10:40)

Are you saying that you reject the Apostle John's testimony concerning Jesus? Then you must reject Jesus and Him who sent Jesus.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who receives whomever I send receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." (John 13:20)

Jesus sent Thomas. Jesus sent John. Jesus sent the twelve apostles. Do you discard their teaching and pretend that you receive Jesus? In that case you do not receive Jesus and do not receive the Father who sent Jesus. That is according to the words of Jesus Christ.

Out of His mouth He prayed for those who received Him BECAUSE of those who He sent. Read His prayer in John 17.

" I ask concerning them, I do not ask concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours." (v.9)

If you not believe [b]John whom Jesus has made an apostle then you do not receive the one telling your ABOUT Jesus Christ in the first place.

Jesus said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

That is right. So we need all the more to be saturated with the Spirit of Jesus Christ so that what is mortal may be swallowed up in life.

By the way that verse does not say shall not have the gift of eternal life. it says shall not enter into the kingdom of God. But this thread in on the Trinity for the Gospel's proclamation and the experience of the saved.