10 Aug 16
Originally posted by divegeesterI think I will maintain that Jesus is the judge of who do good works or otherwise. I have never said that anyone here never do good works. My attitude and yours is not much different. You basically pester people. Do you think that attitude of pestering people is a good attitude?
You think your posts here, your aggressive attitude, name calling and telling other Christians they are not in Christ...is you doing "good works"? You seem to me to just be the other end of the same spectrum sonship is on.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
10 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFFMF: A few weeks back you suggested that my skepticism about your beliefs - as I express it on this forum - might have caused hundreds of people here to face "torture for eternity" at the hands of your God figure. Yes, you actually said that.
sonship: [b]You do have a long term memory. This sounds like something I said years ago and not weeks ...[text shortened]... e concerned that I have influenced others not to be saved. Not being saved means torture, right?
You said that people's blood may be on my hands because of the time I have spent expressing different beliefs
No, it was not for simply expressing different beliefs from me.
It was for expressing different beliefs from the word out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.
You desire to neutralize their impact by referring to His words as just my opinions, from which you differ.
And it must have been very crucial words out from Jesus Christ and not just any and all things He said.
Yes, we would not want to be among those whom Jesus said the following:
" But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you close off the kingdom of the heavens in the face of men, for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to enter." (Matt. 23:13)
Some people do not want to be under God's administration.
Some are not content to not enter themselves but labor to close in the face those who would like to enter.
We should not want to be like this.
But He doesn't say 'Woe to those who have a different opinion from sonship on any matter." That seems to be the import that you wish to derive from the saying.
IE. "Oh, you're saying holding a different opinion from you is closing the door of the kingdom to other people."
No, no simply because you differ from me on any number of issues.
But in the context of the whole Gospel it is disagreeing with the preaching of Christ, that we should be warned about.
from you on this debate and discussion forum.
No. This is the generalization that you need to establish so as to render responsibility to God's word as absurd. Any and all differing opinions from sonship is not the criteria.
Now if you want to argue that the words of Christ have no authority whatsoever, and you desire to believe opposite of some of His critical words, that's a different matter. Your beef then is with Jesus Christ.
You said that the words I have written on this forum may have affected the lives of hundreds of people and that you were concerned that I have influenced others not to be saved.
That doesn't sound like me. I probably used the word "may". And if you could go back and find the quotation, I'm pretty sure that I put it in terms of a POSSIBILITY
Of course you may need to overlook that detail to establish that I accused you definitely of doing so. I probably said something more to the effect that "have you considered that you COULD be doing thus and such".
And it is a possibility that I would say is not impossible to be applied to myself.
When I do not agree with you I do try to accurately represent what it is you said that I disagree with. I do not try to exaggerate it for maximum effect.
If you think I am being unfair to qualify your recollection of that discussion, find the quotations. And we'll examine it.
Not being saved means torture, right?
I am positive that not being saved will not be pleasant.
I do not think it will be a matter of sadism.
Jesus does use the term "tormentors" in one passage. However, in that passage what the "tormentors" inflict is terminated with a time "until" something occurs.
" And his master [who is a type of Christ] became angry and delivered him to the torturers UNTIL he would repay all that was owed.
So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (Matt. 18:34,35)
Since the word torterers or tormentors is indicated here, I would have to say that this punishment is a torture or a torment. But you can see that it must refer to those for whom the punishment is temporary, because it is "UNTIL" something, meaning a termination point.
By extrapolation there is you want to view eternal punishment as eternal torment or eternal torture, you would have some ground to view it that way.
But eternal torment may be more the unpleasantness of being away from the source of all blessing, locked in with your own nagging conscience.
But back to the matter of "God punishes everyone who has a different opinion than sonship !" which you wish to establish: Either condemning me for the words of Jesus or congradulating me for the words of Jesus is unrealistic.
Wouldn't you want someone to honestly warn you if there were such a danger ?
If I knew such a danger existed but did not inform you, would you consider that being more of a favor ?
Yes, Jesus Christ said some things which were very serious and carry with their meaning consequences of significance.
I don't think you can argue that a verse like Matt. 23:13 is the first, last, and only thing I have ever talked about here.
Here is another passage similar to verse 13 about men hindering others from salvation and even making them more prone to severe judgment then ourselves:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits!
For you go about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves." (v.15)
Take a man like Christopher Hitchens or a man like Richard Dawkins. They may have a world wide audience from which they have produced thousands of anti-theists, enemies of Jesus Christ, and militant Gospel hating atheists.
They have a large audience to make atheist anti-theistic disciples to their Atheism. And some will become even more vicious then themselves. If there was no danger to them, Jesus would not have said "WOE to you ..."
Don't attempt to portray me as exempting myself from the warning.
That would be a misrepresentation of my handling of those passages.
Originally posted by sonshipMore dodging wrapped in interminable waffle. I already said i understand what you believe. I have already said i accept that you believe what you believe.You said that people's blood may be on my hands because of the time I have spent expressing different beliefs
No, it was not for simply expressing different beliefs from me.
It was for expressing different beliefs from the word out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.
You desire to neutralize their impact by referring to His words as just my ...[text shortened]... self from the warning.
That would be a misrepresentation of my handling of those passages.[/b]
But the question is this. You estimate I may have caused "hundreds of people" on this forum to have been condemned to damnation (as you believe it to be) by turning them away from your religion through my dissent.
So the question you are dodging is this: in your estimation, how many people on this forum have you condemned to the same damnation (that you believe exists) by alienating them and turning them away from your religion?
You were able to make an estimate for me. What is your estimate for you?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by FMFIs this rant suppose to change something ?
More dodging wrapped in interminable waffle. I already said i understand what you believe. I have already said i accept that you believe what you believe.
But the question is this. You estimate I may have caused "hundreds of people" on this forum to have been condemned to damnation (as you believe it to be) by turning them away from your religion through my d ...[text shortened]... from your religion?
You were able to make an estimate for me. What is your estimate for you?
11 Aug 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterAre you or were you affiliated to the Way International, as sonship has posted?
You are asking a question that involves a great deal of information....my best answer is to have you read this article which I completely agree with. It is also one of the ministries that taught me the truth about the trinity. If you don't care to read it, then stop asking. I am not into disclosing a lot of my personal history....
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/do-you-have-to-believe-in-the-trinity-to-be-saved-2
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Aug 16
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterThe information I wrote about checkbaiter's past experience he publically shared with us on this Forum. Your scolding was unnecessary. Had it been a private message then that would have been different.
Are you or were you affiliated to the Way International, as sonship has posted?
You do the same thing in referring to things I wrote in public in the past.
I put up some biographical sketches of my life. i expect that sometime someone will bring them up. I only hope they recall them accurately.
I was accurate as to what checkbaiter SAID about past involvement with the WaY International. What was my opinion I think I qualified by indicating it was my opinion.
12 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipWell thanks for sharing it - I'm still bemused why checkbaiter didn't want to come out and say it himself. I shall look into their beliefs and see if checkbaiter wants to discuss.
The information I wrote about checkbaiter's past experience he publically shared with us on this Forum. Your scolding was unnecessary. Had it been a private message then that would have been different.
You do the same thing in referring to things I wrote in public in the past.
I put up some biographical sketches of my life. i expect that sometime so ...[text shortened]... he WaY International. What was my opinion I think I qualified by indicating it was my opinion.
I don't remember "scolding you" I just asked if you had permission to share it. If it came across as a scolding them I apologise for that.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Aug 16
Originally posted by divegeesterForgiven.
Well thanks for sharing it - I'm still bemused why checkbaiter didn't want to come out and say it himself. I shall look into their beliefs and see if checkbaiter wants to discuss.
I don't remember "scolding you" I just asked if you had permission to share it. If it came across as a scolding them I apologise for that.
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
12 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipWhat does it matter if you are a "sinner" - or even supposedly the "chief" one - if you have deemed yourself to have been "saved" and granted "eternal life" regardless of what you do?
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by Suzianne to divegeesterAre you aware of how Way International has cropped up in this conversation? One wonders if you even bothered to go back and read why Checkbaiter, sonship and divegeester are talking about it because this sudden blurt about "McCarthy" is very incongruous. 🙂
"Are you now, or were you ever, a member of the Communist Party?"
McCarthy would be proud.
13 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFShe doesn't care about following discussions, that has become obvious over the years I've been here. What Suzianne likes to do is swing metaphorical punches at people she doesn't like and uses the exchanges between her detractors and those who likes as the vehicle to do so. It's the same day in and day out.
Are you aware of how Way International has cropped up in this conversation? One wonders if you even bothered to go back and read why Checkbaiter, sonship and divegeester are talking about it because this sudden blurt about "McCarthy" is very incongruous. 🙂