21 Jul 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeThis must be the 4th time we are discussing this. Give me your thoughts on this passage:
Let's look at that premise a little more closely:
Are you saying no atheist can be good of heart? Or that, if they are good of heart, God is working in them without them being aware of it?
And what if a 'chap who has Jesus' DOES steal. Has such a chap lost Jesus or never had Jesus in the first place?
See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called God's children---and so, in fact, we are. This is why the world does not know us: it has not known God. My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall become. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is.
Everyone who has this hope in Christ keeps himself pure, just as Christ is pure. Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law. You know that Christ appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.
Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.
Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. Here is the clear difference between God's children and the Devil's children: those who do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children. (1 John 3:1-10 GNB)
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21 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipI call it (and the bible calls it) God in Christ in you. In other words, God via holy spirit was in Christ who is also in the believer.I don't care about the word Trinity, it is the concept I am referring to.
So it is not a knee-jerk reaction to the word "Trinity" then. I'll take that as good news.
God is not three or any combination thereof. He is One. There is One God and One Lord, Jesus Christ the Son of God.
Does the pronoun [b]"We" ind ...[text shortened]... e need? Why then this additional someone else not God, has to accompany God to be in us ?[/b]
I clearly see how you see three, but there is no reason to make a 3 in 1 doctrine out of it.
God is above all. He is the God and Father of all of us, including Jesus.
Jesus has a God. The Epistles clearly state, "The God and Father of Jesus Christ."
Why can't people just let God be God and His Son just be His Son who has been highly exalted without making a different all in one package that is difficult for anyone to understand ?
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21 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999The 3rd time. I'm checking for consistency.
This must be the 4th time we are discussing this. Give me your thoughts on this passage:
See how much the Father has loved us! His love is so great that we are called God's children---and so, in fact, we are. This is why the world does not know us: it has not known God. My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall ...[text shortened]... ho do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children. (1 John 3:1-10 GNB)
A nice passage, but are you able to say, hand on heart, that you are currently living a life free of sin?
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeThats between Christ and me. Personal questions I dont ask neither answer.
The 3rd time. I'm checking for consistency.
A nice passage, but are you able to say, hand on heart, that you are currently living a life free of sin?
However Christ does not expect his followers to be completely sinless. He expects them to give up a life of willful and continuous sin. I can also prove that from the Bible. Christians can and do falter hence there is repentance and forgiveness available.
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21 Jul 16
Last night I watched a little of the RNC Convention, and caught Trump's son in a speech.
I thought it was heart warming to see the love and praise he has for his father.
Then they zoomed in on Trump Sr and you could see how proud he was of his son.
Then it hit me about God and Jesus.
How proud God must have been of his son! To see him live a holy life, to be perfectly obedient to his father.
And it was a two way street. Jesus constantly thanked and praised his father.
Do you realize how muddled this becomes if the reader is told that Jesus is God?
Then I wondered how God must have felt watching his son suffer. How he must have felt watching him being punched and beaten.
This was no ordinary beating, Isaiah proclaims that he was so disfigured that his face no longer resembled that of a man.
The humiliation and beating went on for days.
And then I came across this verse in Isaiah...
Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin....
NKJV
I was shocked that God was pleased! And after thinking about it, he was not pleased to watch him suffer, but he had people in mind, you and me!
God was delighted with his son! He hated the suffering too, but He had a plan.
How do you reward a son like that?
Well first God raised him from the dead! (That indicates that God's wrath for sin was appeased once and for all for those that receive his son.)
Then God highly exalted him to be head of the church, the captain of our salvation!
God has made this Jesus, His beloved Son, 2nd in command over all he has.
This is the relationship I see between God and His son. There is no way Jesus can be God himself because it doesn't make sense in any shape way or form.
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21 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999'Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin.'
Thats between Christ and me. Personal questions I dont ask neither answer.
However Christ does not expect his followers to be completely sinless. He expects them to give up a life of willful and continuous sin. I can also prove that from the Bible. Christians can and do falter hence there is repentance and forgiveness available.
We clearly interpret the above passage differently. For me it means children of God stop sinning. For you it's okay to sin now and again, as long as it's not continuous. (I have a similar approach to drinking coffee).
21 Jul 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeWould you say that there is a difference between 'continue to sin' and a single sin of the type you described such as stealing?
'Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin.'
We clearly interpret the above passage differently. For me it means children of God stop sinning. For you it's okay to sin now and again, as long as it's not continuous. (I have a similar approach to drinking coffee).
This is why I have always said that Christ will judge people, as only he would know who lives a life of continuous sin and who commits the odd sin.
Remember also that there are other passages in the Bible that one needs to read the get the whole picture.
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22 Jul 16
6 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I call it (and the bible calls it) God in Christ in you. In other words, God via holy spirit was in Christ who is also in the believer.
I say amen to God in Christ and Christ in the believers.
If we consider the word "in" there and compare it with the word "indwells" we have two words which speak of the living God "in" or "indwelling" the redeemed.
In Romans 8:9-11 this mysterious God surely, as you say, is "in" the believers and "indwells and "dwells in" them.
"The Spirit of God" is IN them is the "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" in them.
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you (v.9)... And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you (v.11) ..."
But wonderfully and mysteriously this One indwelling them - "the Spirit of God" aka. "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"{/b] is also [b]Christ Who is in them.
" ... if the Spirit of God dwells in you (v.9) ... if Christ is in you (v.10) ... And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you (v.11) ..."
Do you agree then the Christ is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead ?
If you can see that that is the case, then you may see why "three-one" is the only way we can grasp with our minds this mysterious Divine Person. For the "We" who come to make an abode in the lovers of Jesus in John 14:23 is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
They co-inhere one another. Each lives in the other. But there is only one God.
You seem not to like to use capital letters in speaking of the Holy Spirit. I wonder why. You prefer small letters to say "holy spirit". But the Bible says "Eternal Father" (Isaiah 9:6) AND "the eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14)
" How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9:11)
I think it quite appropriate to capitalize "Holy Spirit" to indicate that this "eternal Spirit" Who is "the Spirit of God" (Rom.8:9) and "the Spirit of Christ" (v.9) and "Christ" Himself (v.10) and "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." (v.11) is the eternal and uncreated Divine Being - God.
I clearly see how you see three, but there is no reason to make a 3 in 1 doctrine out of it.
I see "We" as more than one in John 14:23.
And I see "Us" as more than one in John 17:21.
But in the Apostle Paul's letter about the experience of the Christians in their enjoyment of God, I see that we have no way to detect any separation between the "Members" of this "We" and the "Constituents" of this "Us".
We discern no separation. They are three-one.
God is above all. He is the God and Father of all of us, including Jesus.
Jesus has a God. The Epistles clearly state, "The God and Father of Jesus Christ."
This is true. And the Father God who is above all is also "IN ALL" of the members of the Body of Christ.
" One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:6)
The transcendent and eternal Father over all who is indwelling the believers is also Christ in the believers. We can detect no separation.
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ... " (See Rom. 8:9,10)
Furthermore, the Father who is over all "gives life" to the believers moral bodied [b](Rom.8:11) -
" He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (v.11b)
But Christ became a life giving Spirit -
" the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45)
The life giver is the Triune God. Surely the very term "Father" denotes God as the Source of life, the begetting One who dispenses life - "Father" to His life partaking sons.
But Jesus said He is THE life (John 14:6).
And the Holy Spirit is called "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2)
And the last Adam [Christ] "became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45b)
The Triune God is for imparting Himself into man for the accomplishing of the union and incorporation of God and man.
Why can't people just let God be God and His Son just be His Son who has been highly exalted without making a different all in one package that is difficult for anyone to understand ?
But why cannot we just confess that Jesus is "my Lord and my God" ?
Unfortunately, these kinds of discussions arise when someone feels that the blessedness of believing as Thomas did, the Jesus is God, is to be questioned.
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22 Jul 16
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
How proud God must have been of his son! To see him live a holy life, to be perfectly obedient to his father.
And it was a two way street. Jesus constantly thanked and praised his father.
Do you realize how muddled this becomes if the reader is told that Jesus is God?
And how happy the Father is to see us live by Christ as Christ lived by the Father.
" As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)
What an unspeakable honor, What an profound privilege that as Christ lived giving joy to the Father we too can live by Christ also giving joy to the Father.
Is there a higher calling for a human being ?
Oh, to be sons of God.
Even being president of a great country does not compare in honor.
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22 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou miss the whole point. How can God be proud of his son if he is the son?How proud God must have been of his son! To see him live a holy life, to be perfectly obedient to his father.
And it was a two way street. Jesus constantly thanked and praised his father.
Do you realize how muddled this becomes if the reader is told that Jesus is God?
And how happy the Father is to see us live by Christ as Christ live ...[text shortened]... ?
Oh, to be sons of God.
Even being president of a great country does not compare in honor.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThats why its mysterious. Mysterious means that he does not understand it, neither can he explain it. Some people are excited about things that cannot be understood and gravitate to such doctrines. People like you and me rather sticking with what is clear and simple eg Jesus said he is the Son of God and God is his Father. For some that is boring and not mysterious enough so they move into doctrines that excite them.
You miss the whole point. How can God be proud of his son if he is the son?
Synonyms for mysterious : puzzling, strange, peculiar, curious, funny, queer, odd, weird, bizarre, mystifying, inexplicable, baffling, perplexing, bewildering, confusing, uncanny, dark, impenetrable, incomprehensible, unexplainable, unfathomable, Delphic, sibylline, unaccountable, insoluble, obscure; arcane, recondite, secret, esoteric, occult, cryptic, hidden, concealed, supernatural, mystical
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22 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiter
You miss the whole point. How can God be proud of his son if he is the son?
I do not know. The limitation of my created human mind cannot explain God's inner being. I do not know
But the word of God says that God is love.
I will have to talk latter.
22 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship[b]You miss the whole point. How can God be proud of his son if he is the son?
I do not know. The limitation of my created human mind cannot explain God's inner being. I do not know
But the word of God says that God is love.
I will have to talk latter.[/b]a non sequitur truly worthy of Ralph Wiggum,
How can God be proud of his son if he is the son.
I do not know. But the word of God says that God is love.
IT DOES NOT FOLLOW!
🙄
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22 Jul 16
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Here is another example of some of the really stupid things you come up with.
Thats why its mysterious.Some people are excited about things that cannot be understood and gravitate to such doctrines. People like you and me rather sticking with what is clear and simple eg [b]Jesus said he is the Son of God and God is his Father. For some that is boring and not mysterious enough so they move into doctrines that excite them.
Sy ...[text shortened]... ane, recondite, secret, esoteric, occult, cryptic, hidden, concealed, supernatural, mystical[/b]
The New Testament itself speaks of "the great mystery" and "Christ the mystery of God". It also says that the serving ones in the church life should hold "the mystery of the faith".
So is Paul below your lofty level because he wrote "the glory of this mystery, Christ in you" ?
" To whom God willed to make know what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27)
Mysterious means that he does not understand it, neither can he explain it.
The first name that this God-man is called in Isaiah's prophecy is "Wonderful"
The Hebrew word pehle, translated "Wonderful" in Isaiah 9:6, means something unusual, unheard of, extraordinary, hard to understand, beyond one's powers, too difficult, and incomprehensible. The same root word is used in three other places that illustrate its meaning:
"Is anything too hard for the Lord?" (Gen. 18:4);
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." (Psalm 139:6);
"But the angel of the Lord said to him, Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful!" (Judges 13:18).
Hallelujah! Wonderful means incomprehensible! This marvelous Name reveals the mystery of the Triune God. He is beyond human comprehension, Franz Delitzch in his Old Testament commentaries on Isaiah 9:6 said;
He is first called Wonderful!, which mean He is incomprehensible to mortal man: He is a phenomenon lying altogether beyond human conception or natural occurrence. Not only is this or that wonderful in Him, but He Himself is throughout a wonder.
[The Testimony of Church History Regarding the Mystery of the Triune God, Bill Freeman, Stream Publishers, pg.5,6, my spacing]
This One who is "unto us" is Pehel Wonderful. Your boasting that you perfectly understand God's inner nature doesn't impress me, if it impresses checkbaiter.