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Originally posted by sonshipI think their growth will be effected and hindered if they do not eventually realize that the Jesus Christ they have let into their hearts is indeed God.
Hi sonship. Checkbaiter answered without hesitation. What about you? Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?
I did not hesitate. I just didn't answer.
The question is loaded first of all. As you word it, contains a trick. To a ...[text shortened]... d want to grow in this salvation. For it is not God's only goal that sinners simply be forgiven.
The receiving of initial salvation may not be effected. The progress and maturity, i am pretty sure, will be hampered by clinging to some error like not understanding that to touch Jesus is to touch God.
This is absurd. On the contrary the relationship is deeper.
We would be hard pressed to identify with a godman.
How is a godman genuinely tempted in all ways like us humans?
In what way was he made like his brothers?
The man Jesus whom I know, blazed a glorious trail of faith and trust in his Father, and showed us the way.
Which begs the question about God being dead. Was he really?
God is not only alive, but God cannot die in any way shape or form.
However, His created son could die. His created son could be genuinely tempted. His created son was made like his brothers.
I could identify with my hero!
Now that He is raised and has a glorified body, I have Hope in the fact that one day I and all believers will be like Him.
Now I have Him interceding in prayer with the Father on my behalf. Why on earth would he have to do that if he is God?
No sir, it is just the opposite of your post. I have a great relationship with Jesus and the Father.
All the trinity does is confuse and muddle the truth of who God and His Son really are.
It tends to keep God mysterious and unknowable. The same for Jesus Christ.
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
This is absurd. On the contrary the relationship is deeper.
The Apostle John considers the Triune God "deep" to the point that he strongly implies that anything else usurping His place in our hearts is an idol.
The last exhortation in his exceedingly deep First John Epistle puts it well.
" And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:20,21)
Who are the Christians in ? Him that is true and His Son Jesus Christ, we are in:
"This" - Him that is true and His Son in whom we are in - is the true God and eternal life.
No matter is more important.
No matter should take the place of this.
No matter should be more preeminent to this.
This is the realization of the first commandment.
This is "the true God and eternal life".
Living in the Father and the Son is the reality of which no idols should take the place.
We would be hard pressed to identify with a godman.
Peter says the disciples are partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) .
Instead of dumbing down the New Testament to excuse defeated Christian living we should instead partake of overcoming by standing on the precious and great promises.
" ... He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust." (1 Pet. 1:4b)
When we are told the Christian is a PARTAKER of the divine nature, it should not be hard to express this truth with such a phrase as God-men.
And we should be practical about this precious promise. When lust comes in like a flood, how about we utter the truth to God and to Satan and to ourselves -
'Lord Jesus, I am a PARTAKER of the divine nature. Amen! Lord, Thankyou, I am a PARTAKER OF THE DIVINE NATURE. Lord through this divine nature I prevail, I overcome, I escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. I escape to partake MORE and MORE of the DIVINE nature."
Instead of dumbing down the revelation to cover for the degradation of Christianity, why not come up to the truth of these exceedingly precious promises ?
At any rate if the phrase "God-man" troubles some, why not use the phrase "man of God" or "sons of God". This biblical terms mean virtually the same thing when closely considered.
Of what species is the son of a whale? Answer: a whale.
Of what species is the son of a lama ? Answer: a lama.
Of what species is the son of a man ? Answer: a man.
(No I do not mean to argue about the biological technicalities of the definition of "species" ),
Important:
Of what species is a son of God? Answer: God.
Hence a God-man.
Christians are God-men.
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How is a godman genuinely tempted in all ways like us humans?
First he was a man. He was born naturally a man. And he learned to live naturally as a man. And he is mighty use to living as a man - full of temptations and failures both.
Then he is REBORN. Then he is born again. Then in addition to his natural life he receives Christ who is the life of God. He receives the Holy Spirit and in this Spirit is Christ the Son and the Father.
Now he must learn to live another way - in union with his new innermost being.
Of course, since he is USED to living in the old manner of life, he is tempted to continue to do so.
But he learns that he is crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. And he is called to this high calling to live Christ.
He is a God-man and is called to a God-man living.
Of course Satan the Devil does not want them to realize that they are indeed God-men.
So some settle for just believing that God only wants to take them to heaven as forgiven people someday.
But what God needs is for an army of people on earth to realize and stand upon the truth that they are "sons of God" and or men of God, aka "God-men".
The building together of the male and female God-men into a corporate God-man will consummate the age and turn it to the age of the millennial kingdom.
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In what way was he made like his brothers?
This is only a half of the total revelation of Hebrews. He was made like His brothers. But He is leading many sons into the glorious expression of the divine being -the Father.
" For it is fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many SONS into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb. 2:10)
There is a TWO-WAY traffic here in this matter. He became like us that we might become like Him. This is not a ONE-WAY trip. It is a ROUND-TRIP.
God became man so as to make man God, in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.
God-men means we partake of the communicable attributes of God.
There are non-communicable attributes of God that we will never partake in.
But "sons of God" in the New Testament means God Himself dispenses His life and nature into His redeemed people.
The man Jesus whom I know, blazed a glorious trail of faith and trust in His Father, and showed us the way.
Yes. He blazed a glorious trail. And He said GREATER THINGS then these His believers would do.
He is in Hebrews like Joshua - He is the "Captain of Salvation" (Hebrews 2:10) leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Father.
The Recovery Version says "Author of salvation".
But you must stop and think about the name Jesus - which is Greek for JOSHUA.
Joshua, the general leading the people of God into the Promise Land.
And we have Christ (Joshua - Jesus) leading many sons into the manifestation of the glory of the sons of God.
Greater works that these would His people do as they follow the Captain of Salvation into the expression of God mingled with man.
" truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do because I go to the Father." (John 14:12)
These are "greater things" according to the estimation of Christ as to what is "great".. These are not "greater things" in the eyes of the world but in the eyes of God and His children. like the building up of the Body of Christ to be a corporate manifestation of God dispensed into man - matching Christ.
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How is a godman genuinely tempted in all ways like us humans?
Satan tempted Him to stand on His divine standing as the Son of God to turn stones into bread. Jesus answered him by saying He was standing on the ground of a man - \
"Man ... shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
The point is that He did not cheat by standing on His divinity. He withstood the temptation by standing on the ground of an obedient man.
Paul said the man of God should flee these things. This means he flees temptation.
" But you, O man of God [a God-man] flee these things, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, meekness." (1 Timothy 6:11)
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Originally posted by sonship“and we are in the True One by means of his Son Jesus Christ.” The Greek reads that we are “in” the True One, “in” His Son Jesus Christ. We believe that the second “in” is an instrumental dative, “by” or “by means of.” It certainly is the testimony of Scripture that we get to know God through His Son Jesus. Most versions translate and punctuate the verse so that Jesus becomes God, but that is an interpretation, not what the text says. R. C. H. Lenski, a Trinitarian, writes that this verse does not make Jesus God.This is absurd. On the contrary the relationship is deeper.
The Apostle John considers the Triune God "deep" to the point that he strongly implies that anything else usurping His place in our hearts is an idol.
The last exhortation in his exceedingly deep [b]First John Epistle puts it well.
[quote] " And we know that th ...[text shortened]... what species is a son of God? Answer: God.
Hence a God-man.
Christians are God-men.[/b]
The ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ [“in the true One”] does not refer to a different person than does τὸν ἀληθινόν, namely “the real God.” The article with the dative reads like an article of previous reference. Our versions translate otherwise: “And we are in him that is true (real), even in his Son Jesus Christ.” This makes the second ἐν [“in”] phrase appositional to the first so that “the real One” in the phrase = “his Son Jesus Christ.” A comma is, therefore, placed between the ἐν phrases. If this were John’s meaning, he would have omitted αὐτοῦ, would have written: “And we are in the real One, (namely) in the Son Jesus Christ.” He wrote αὐτοῦ, the antecedent of which is τῷ ἀληθινῷ. We translate without the use of a comma: “And we are in the real One (God) in his Son Jesus Christ.”
REV
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Originally posted by sonshipI was referring to the godman jesus. He could not be genuinely tempted.
How is a godman genuinely tempted in all ways like us humans?
First he was a man. He was born naturally a man. And he learned to live naturally as a man. And he is mighty use to living as a man - full of temptations and failures both.
Then he is REBORN. Then he is born again. Then in addition to his natural life he receives Christ who ...[text shortened]... to a corporate God-man will consummate the age and turn it to the age of the millennial kingdom.
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Sorry sonship, but this all sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo to me. Now you are saying Christians are godmen too? This is completely illogical and non biblical.
You have to go through a lot of hoops to make Jesus God, which a simple reading says he is the son of God. Jesus has a God who is also his Father.
I am not mocking you nor trying to offend you, but for someone to swallow all of this would take a total disregard for the scriptures.
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"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we night know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
What does the word "This" refer to ?
"This" refers to the God who has come through incarnation. God who has come through incarnation has given His redeemed people the ability to know Him as the genuine God.
John's word here exactly echoes the Gospel of John in Christ words in His mighty prayer in chapter 17.
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only God, and Him whom You have sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)
What did Jesus say IS "eternal life" ? Eternal life is to know the only God and Him whom He has sent, Jesus Christ. And the Apostle writes that the redeemed are in the true God - in His Son Jesus Christ who the true God sent.
This is about the true God not in a purely objective and outward "He is out there" kind of way Both the Orthodox Jews, Moslems, or Bahai's may speak about the true God in purely objective terms. Rather this is about God dispensing Himself into man to be eternal life to man.
Fallen man was alienated and estranged not only from knowing God. But he was alienated from "the LIFE of God" (Eph. 4:18) . The life of God is God's life and is God Himself. When God dispenses Himself into man in His communicable attributes man is given the ability to live God. God becomes to man eternal life. The "life of God" is imparted into man.
All "This" of God's incarnation is is the genuine God and eternal life ("the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) to the believers from which the redeemed are no longer alienated via Christ's salvation.
The true God and Him who He has sent in incarnation and in whom the believers are put in, is everything to their regenerated being. No idols should take the place of the One in whom they are organically in, and know, and have an understanding of, and realize as the truth - the genuine God whom man can live through.
When Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life" (John 14:6) He speaks of "the life of God" from which fallen man was estranged and alienated (Eph. 4:18)
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He is not only "the way" to this life. He is both "the way" and "the life" Himself. He is not only come with a truth about this life. He is "the truth" and "the life" Himself.
To be unsaved, unredeemed - outside of Christ is to be "alienated from the life of God." (Eph. 4:18) . To be in Him and He in us is to have "the life of God" dispensed into us.
Eventually, God's eternal purpose is that we would be "swallowed up in life" , ie. fully mingled with God.
" ... we do not desire to be unclothed but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by [zoe] life." (2 Cor. 5:4b)
The destiny sooner or latter of all the redeemed is to be swallowed up by the divine Person. No wonder nothing can replace Him as an idol being more important to us than God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
" Little children, guard yourselves from idols." ( 1 John 5:21)