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What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

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Originally posted by checkbaiter
“and we are in the True One by means of his Son Jesus Christ.” The Greek reads that we are “in” the True One, “in” His Son Jesus Christ. We believe that the second “in” is an instrumental dative, “by” or “by means of.” It certainly is the testimony of Scripture that we get to know God through His Son Jesus. Most versions translate and punctuate the verse ...[text shortened]... ate without the use of a comma: “And we are in the real One (God) in his Son Jesus Christ.”
REV
I think you should more fully credit your sources.

Here I include a note on "Little children, guard yourselves from idols" by brother Witness Lee.Some of it is a footnote in the Recovery Version New Testament on 1 John 5:21.

GUARDING OURSELVES FROM
IDOLS


In verse 21 John goes on to conclude “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.” The word “guard” means to garrison ourselves against attacks from without, like the assaults of the heresies. “Idols” refers to the heretical substitutes, brought in by the Gnostics and Cerinthians, for the true God, as revealed in this Epistle and in John's Gospel and referred to in the preceding verse. Idols here also refer to anything that replaces the real God. We as genuine children of the genuine God should be on the alert to guard ourselves from these heretical substitutes and all vain replacements of our genuine and real God, with whom we are organically one and who is eternal life to us. This is the aged apostle's word of warning to all his little children as a conclusion of his Epistle.

According to John's understanding, an idol is anything that replaces, is a substitute for, the subjective God, the God whom we have experienced and whom we are still experiencing. Through this enlightenment, we are able to understand 5:18-21 in a very experiential way.

Before we were saved, we were outside of God. God was true in Himself, but we could not say in our experience that He was true to us. But after we believed in the Lord Jesus, we entered into God. Therefore, 5:20 says not only that we know the true One, but also that we are in the true One. We have seen that to be in the true One means that we are in His Son Jesus Christ. Because we are in God, He now experientially becomes true to us. Likewise, because we are in Jesus Christ, He becomes experientially true to us. Due to our experience of God and Christ by being in God and in Christ, we can say that this is the true God and eternal life.

The word “this” in 5:20 implies that God, Jesus Christ, and eternal life are one. In doctrine, there may be a distinction between God, Christ, and eternal life, but in our experience they are one. When we are in God and in Jesus Christ and when we experience eternal life, we find that all these are one. Therefore, John concludes verse 20 by saying, “This is the true God and eternal life.” This sentence is not merely the conclusion of verse 20; it is actually the conclusion of the entire book. What this Epistle reveals is the true God and eternal life.


The Life Sudy if 1rst,2nd,& 3rd John by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=032FDFD6CF

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Originally posted by sonship
Which is not God ?

The [b] Father?

The Son?
The Holy Spirit?

You dare not answer still.[/b]
I will... The Father is obviously God as well as the Holy Spirit is another name for God.
The Son speaks for itself.

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Originally posted by sonship
I think you should more fully credit your sources.

Here I include a note on [b]"Little children, guard yourselves from idols"
by brother Witness Lee.Some of it is a footnote in the Recovery Version New Testament on 1 John 5:21.

[quote] GUARDING OURSELVES FROM
IDOLS


In verse 21 John goes on to conclude “Little children, guar ...[text shortened]... ,& 3rd John[/b] by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=032FDFD6CF[/b]
I sort of agree with this. God is in Christ who is in me via His gift of holy spirit.
But there is no need for a trinity. We come to know god through Jesus Christ, no question.

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Originally posted by sonship
I think you should more fully credit your sources.

Here I include a note on [b]"Little children, guard yourselves from idols"
by brother Witness Lee.Some of it is a footnote in the Recovery Version New Testament on 1 John 5:21.

[quote] GUARDING OURSELVES FROM
IDOLS


In verse 21 John goes on to conclude “Little children, guar ...[text shortened]... ,& 3rd John[/b] by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=032FDFD6CF[/b]
My sources are very good, thank you. They are very devoted and faithful men whom I personally have known for many years.
They, primarily John Shonheidt, has done exhaustive work to produce the REV, with commentary. 40 years of research, many trips to the bible lands in and near Israel, has helped mold and start this ministry.
He loves God and the Lord Jesus Christ and he is the best Old Testament teacher I know.
He has written many books about the bible and I have been to some of his live teachings.
It would behoove you to read and listen to some of his work with an open mind.
http://www.stfonline.org/

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Originally posted by checkbaiter
I will... The Father is obviously God as well as the Holy Spirit is another name for God.
The Son speaks for itself.
You say the Holy Spirit is another name for God.

In Isaiah 9:6 another name for "Eternal Father" is the [b]son .. given. The Son is then another name for "Eternal Father".

In the same prophecy the God Who is called "Mighty God" also has the name of the "child ...born". The two names refer to the same Being.

If we want to refer to this Wonderful One we may call Him "Mighty God" or we may call Him the "child ... born." .

Two designations refer to the One Person - "child ... born" and "Mighty God".
Two designations refer the the same Person - "son ... given" and "Eternal Father".

You may object that 'child ... born" or "son ... given" are not proper names. If so, I might agree to a point. But these are two descriptions for "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" respectively.

If two proper names is sought Jesus and Emmanuel refer to the same Person.

" And she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus for it is He who will save His people from their sins.

... Now all this has happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled saying,

Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel (which is translated God with us)." (Matt. 1:21-23)


Jesus is another name for "God with us" - (Emmanuel) .

The Word is the same Person as God in John 1:1.

And the name "the Word of God" is a name Son has in His coming again as well as His becoming flesh.

" And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God." (Rev. 19:13)


This is Jesus Who has His garments stained by the blood of His enemies from the battle of Armageddon. And His other name is "the Word of God".

He is also called in verse 16 "King of kings" and another name still - "Lord of lords"

"And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev. 19:16)


Therefore - "the Word, God,Jesus, God with us, the Word of God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords" all are names of this Wonderful Person.

But we can go on. Second Corinthians 3:17,18 this Person has the name of "the Lord" and also "the Spirit".

"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. " (2 Cor. 3:17)


If we inquire Who is meant by the title "the Lord" in Second Corinthians it is "the Lord Jesus Christ"

"Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1:1)

"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, ..." (4:5a)


So "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord, the Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord, Christ Jesus" all refer to the same Person too.

So another name for "the Spirit" is "the Lord Jesus Christ".

Another name for "the Spirit of God" is "Christ".

" But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. ... But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (See Rom. 8:9,10)


So another name for "Christ" is "the Spirit of God" there.

And another name for "Christ" the One indwelling the Christians is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"

" But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you ... " (Rom. 8:10,11a)


So another name for "the Spirit Who raised Jesus from the dead" indwelling the believers is "Christ".

Another name for "His Spirit" is "the last Adam". I know this because His Spirit gives life and the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.

" He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." ( Rom. 11b)

" ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45b)


Another name for 'His Spirit"{/b] who gives life is [b]"the last Adam" because He became a "life giving Spirit". - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" ( 2 Cor. 3:17)

In John 20 another name for "Lord" is "God" to the disciple Thomas and to Christians for two thousand some years.

" Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)


You will not rob us of this blessing. Another name for my Lord Jesus is God.. We have not seen, but we have believed. You cannot take this blessing away from believers.

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Originally posted by sonship
You say the Holy Spirit is another name for God.

In [b]Isaiah 9:6
another name for "Eternal Father" is the [b]son .. given. The Son is then another name for "Eternal Father".

In the same prophecy the God Who is called "Mighty God" also has the name of the "child ...born". The two names refer to the same Be ...[text shortened]... b]. We have not seen, but we have believed. You cannot take this blessing away from believers.[/b]
Jesus himself said God is "holy" and God is "spirit", hence, Holy Spirit. When God gives His gift to a person, it is called holy spirit. I think you know the verses, but I will look them up for you if you wish.

In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to something was called its “father.” For example, because Jabal was the first one to live in a tent and raise livestock, the Bible says, “he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock” (Gen. 4:20). Furthermore, because Jubal was the first inventor of musical instruments, he is called, “the father of all who play the harp and flute” (Gen. 4:21). Scripture is not using “father” in the sense of literal father or ancestor in these verses, because both these men were descendants of Cain, and all their descendants died in the Flood. “Father” was being used in the cultural understanding of either one who was the first to do something or someone who was important in some way. Because the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it, he is called “the father of the coming age.”
I will continue on the rest of your post later.

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The phrase “Mighty God” can also be better translated. Although the word “God” in the Hebrew culture had a much wider range of application than it does in ours, the average reader does not know or understand that. Readers familiar with the Semitic languages know that a man who is acting with God’s authority can be called “god.” Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god,” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot. A better translation for the English reader would be “mighty hero,” or “divine hero.” Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles.
from Spirit and Truth website...

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Originally posted by checkbaiter
Jesus himself said God is "holy" and God is "spirit", hence, Holy Spirit. When God gives His gift to a person, it is called holy spirit. I think you know the verses, but I will look them up for you if you wish.


The coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of Jesus in another form.

" And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because he abidees with you and shall be in you.

I will not leave you as orphans, I am coming to you." (John 14:16-18)


The "He" of verse 17 suddenly becomes the "I" of verse 18.

'He" the Spirit of reality, is coming to you.
"I will not leave you as orphans, I AM COMING TO YOU."

The "I" Who is coming to the disciples in verse 18 is the "He" in verse 17 Who is coming to them.

He dwelt with them as a physical man.
He is coming to them to dwell IN THEM as the Spirit of reality.

" He abides with you and shall be in you."


Christ dwelling with them will not leave them as orphans. He will come to them in another form as the Spirit of reality, Another Comforter, and will be in them.


In the culture of the Bible, anyone who began anything or was very important to something was called its “father.” For example, because Jabal was the first one to live in a tent and raise livestock, the Bible says, “he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock” (Gen. 4:20). ...
“Father” was being used in the cultural understanding of either one who was the first to do something or someone who was important in some way. Because the Messiah will be the one to establish the age to come, raise the dead into it, and rule over it, he is called “the father of the coming age.”



There however, is only ONE Divine Eternal Father. If you have TWO divine Eternal Fathers then you definitely have polytheism. There may be many fathers of this or that in the Bible. But there is only one divine Eternal Father - Yahweh.

Many teachers have tried to twist the title Everlasting Father or Eternal Father to force it to mean some OTHER father. You have attempts to say it is the Father of creation or the Father of Israel or the Father of the age to come or the Father of the Messianic age.

There is only one Divine and everlasting Father in the Bible who is eternal. And that is Jehovah God (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8; John 5:43; 10:30; 14:7-10)
VARIOUS TWISTINGS OF ISAIAH 9:6

A fifth twisting is based upon a note in an edition of the Septuagint. (The Septuagint is an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.) This note renders “the Father of the age to come” for “the everlasting Father.” Some say that, based on this, the everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 is not the Father in the Godhead, but the Father of the coming age. They claim that He is the Father who brings in the new age, just as Edison was the father who brought in the age of electrical science. But the Hebrew word for “everlasting” in this verse means eternity, eternal, everlasting, evermore, perpetually, old, world without end (see Strong’s Concordance). However they twist this verse, they cannot twist away the title, “the Father.”


From What a Heresey- 2 Divine Fathers, 2 Life Giving Spirits, & 3 Gods by Witness Lee.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/heresy.html

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The "Mighty God" in "Isaiah 9:6" is Jehovah God.

" ...but they will rely upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return of Jacob, to the mighty God." (Isaiah 10:20b,21)


Though the Strong's Concordance gives a different Hebrew word fo "mighty" in both the passages, I think it is still confirming basically, that Jehovah is the mighty God.

But the same word in Hebrew for "Mighty" is used for God in Nehemiah 9:32.

"and now, our God, The great, the mighty, and the awesome God ..." (Neh. 9:32)


The same Hebrew word for "mighty" is in Deut. 10:17.

"For it is Jehovah your God who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,

the great, mighty and awesome, who does not regard persons and does not take bribes." (Deut. 10:17)



Of course Strong's # 1638 is used for mighty men, as in men of valor. But there should be no mistaking that "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" in Isaiah 9:6 has to be Yahweh - Jehovah God. Mighty men are not eternal. The divine Father of the Godhead is.

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Originally posted by sonship
Which is not God ?

The [b] Father?

The Son?
The Holy Spirit?

You dare not answer still.[/b]
I responded at the top page 9

divegeester
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Originally posted by sonship
...You dare not answer still.
You think this is a scary question 🙄

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Originally posted by divegeester
They are all the same person. I only have one God.

Your question is a bit like asking a man who is a son, and brother and a father, which one he is not?
If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same person.....and only one God, how is that different from the trinity?

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Originally posted by chaney3
If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same person.....and only one God, how is that different from the trinity?
Oh, I thought you were ignoring me in the other thread 😉

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Originally posted by divegeester
Oh, I thought you were ignoring me in the other thread 😉
I addressed your comments in my reply to Suzianne.
Ignore you? You're like the patch of poison ivy that the doctor warns not to scratch, because it will just make things worse, but you scratch anyway! 😉

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Witness Lee

When it comes to the matter of the Triune God, many Christians only care for their tradition, not for the clear, accurate word of the Bible. In order to preserve their tradition, they twist the words of Scripture and will not return absolutely to the pure word of the Bible. Because of this tradition, a fight is going on. Although we do not like to fight, we cannot avoid it. Therefore, we must point out that many Christians hold a concept, which is certainly heretical, of two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and some, even of three Gods. It may be that they are not aware of this or that they hold it unconsciously and, thus, they may deny that they hold it. However, the concept held by them actually is heretical because it implies two divine Fathers, two life-giving Spirits, and, in some cases, three Gods.


I wholeheartedly disagree with Lee, and to call Unitarians heretical is a poor defense.
I have not said it because of respect for Trinitarians, but the only heretics here are people that change one God and one Lord of the bible into a three in one idol.
Unitarians are far outnumbered by Trinitarians, and reminds me of the words of Jesus,
"13“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and spacious is the road that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14How narrow is the gate, and constricted the road, that leads to life, and few are those who find it.".

I have seen nothing from your posts or links that have even come close to swaying me to believe Jesus is God. On the contrary it has done nothing but strengthen my belief in what the bible says.
"6yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him."
1st Cor 8:6

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