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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipI am happy that you seem to be at peace with this doctrine...
[b] I know that water is symbolic of holy spirit. But I say it is a stretch because it does not stand out in scripture.
I gave you many passages. To some of us it stands out quite clearly. And we experience God flowing within us.
If ever there was a topic for the Lord to reveal plainly, it would be this one. Is there a Trinit ...[text shortened]... y mentally systematizing God for purely theological purposes.
For length's sake, I stop here.
I am at peace without it.
As before we will agree to disagree, I will still regard you as a brother in Christ as with all Christians.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterWhew Checkbaiter! Brief replies, I hope.
According to Jesus...
According to Jesus, God is strictly one Person, not three. Christians who value Jesus as the supreme revealer of truth should consider his classic words, uttered in a final prayer. "You, Father, are the only one who is truly God" (John 17:3). He defined salvation as belief in that One and only true God, and in himself as the Mess ...[text shortened]... in the latter text to the birth of Jesus.
http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/according.htm
According to Jesus...
According to Jesus, God is strictly one Person, not three.
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But this one God imparts Himself into the lovers of Jesus. And when He DOES ... Jesus used the word "We"
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The Divine "We" there is the Father and the Son. So when the ancient brothers pressed to explain God, came up with the phrase "Trinity" they were right on - a three-one God.
Christians who value Jesus as the supreme revealer of truth should consider his classic words, uttered in a final prayer. "You, Father, are the only one who is truly God" (John 17:3). He defined salvation as belief in that One and only true God, and in himself as the Messiah (John 17:3).
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And they also should treasure the words uttered in the very same prayer about the Divine "Us" of the Father and the Son -
" That they all may be one; even as You Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (v.21)
And they also should treasure the words in the same prayer about the Divine "We" -
"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one." (v.22a)
The Oneness of the Christian church is actually the oneness of the three _______ of the Triune God. And the saints are in the process of being perfected into this oneness. That is the Lord's request to the Father -
It is a serious hijacking of the words of Jesus if one adds to Jesus' creed. For Jesus, his Father is "the one who alone is truly God, the only one who is truly God, the one true God" (see also John 5:44 and Mark 12:29).
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But the one God is about dispensing Himself into man. And to dispense God into man God is a Trinity. So the Apostle John refers to the one true God and God AND Him Whom He has sent - Jesus Christ. The passage is very much about subjective enjoyment of God.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
God is dispensing Himself into His believers. The true God is eternal life. The true God is Him who is true and His Son Jesus Christ in Whom we are in. So the true God is the Father and the Son.
Those utterances are more than clear. They are without a hint of ambiguity. Yet they have been abandoned by the church bearing the name of Jesus.
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What? God the Father dwells in the believers. And God the Son dwells in the believers. And there is only ONE God.
"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:6)
That is "all" in the Body of Christ, the church.
With the Father who is in all, Jesus Christ is in all -
" Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." ( 2 Cor. 13:5)
So it is no wonder that Jesus spoke of God indwelling the Christians as the Divine "WE" of the Father and the Son.
" ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The Father and the Son live in me as the one God. The one God is the Divine "We" who has come to make an abode with me.
Full stop here.
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The church has for centuries, since post-biblical times, defined God as three Persons. Jesus defined God as one Person, the Father.
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Let me ask you this. If God has come to indwell the redeemed and you say that that Jesus is not God but spoke of one God, then why is there a need for Jesus Christ to indwell the believers also?
Compare:
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God." ( 1 John 4:15)
" ... Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)
"But when it pleased God ... To reveal His Son in me." (See Gal. 1:15,16)
"Or do you not know that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." (See 2 Cor. 13:5b)
If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?
Notice "the Spirit of God" is used interchangeably with "Christ".
" But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
But if Christ is in you, .... the spirit is life because of righteousness." (See Rom. 8:9-11)
The Spirit of God equals the Spirit of Christ equals Christ.
The "Spirit of God" is therefore also "Christ". And He - the Triune God, indwells the believers in Christ. And Jesus spoke of this indwelling as the indwelling of the Divine "We" (John 14:23) coming to make an abode within the lovers of Jesus.
Stop here.
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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by checkbaiterI would however, like to take on some of your Old Testament challenges.
I am happy that you seem to be at peace with this doctrine...
I am at peace without it.
As before we will agree to disagree, I will still regard you as a brother in Christ as with all Christians.
But if you are indeed peaceful about not believing that Jesus is God, if that is what I understand you to be saying, please answer this:
If God indwells the Christians and Jesus is not God, of what need is there for Jesus to indwell the Christians?
Why would not God indwelling them be enough?
That is assuming your teaching that the Father is God but the Son is NOT.
I eagerly expect your explanation.
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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonship
[b]The church has for centuries, since post-biblical times, defined God as three Persons. Jesus defined God as one Person, the Father.
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Let me ask you this. If God has come to indwell the redeemed and you say that that Jesus is not God but spoke of one God, then why i ...[text shortened]... ]"We"[/b] (John 14:23) coming to make an abode within the lovers of Jesus.
Stop here.[/b]
If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?
This is the job or position which entails much responsibility that was given Jesus when He was highly exalted as the first born or first in rank. He is the captain of our salvation.
God is in Christ, Christ is in the believer. Why is this so difficult?
These words you use, triune, incarnate, trinity, the bible is a collection of 66 books to instruct the believer, why are these terms not found therein?
We are to read what is found in the bible, study, pray...
1 Peter 2:1-3
Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
NKJV
Eph 4:15-16
but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ — 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
NKJV
But I do not see these words anywhere. It is however, found in Greek Mythology. There are Trinities there galore.
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by checkbaiterWhat you write here is a good example of nitpicking.
If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?
This is the job or position which entails much responsibility that was given Jesus when He was highly exalted as the first born or first in rank. He is t ...[text shortened]... these words anywhere. It is however, found in Greek Mythology. There are Trinities there galore.
The Bible says it many ways
- God dwells in the believer
- The Spirit of God is in the believer
- Christ is in me
- The power of God is in me
- The Spirit of God leads me
etc etc
Why is that an issue. They all mean the same. What it does not mean is that God and Christ are the same entity since there are many dozens of passages which state or imply that they are distinct and separate with clearly defined responsibilities and functions.
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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't disagree, I think Sonship is using a lot of words implying something different.
What you write here is a good example of nitpicking.
The Bible says it many ways
- God dwells in the believer
- The Spirit of God is in the believer
- Christ is in me
- The power of God is in me
- The Spirit of God leads me
etc etc
Why is that an issue. They all mean the same. What it does not mean is that God and Christ are the same entity sin ...[text shortened]... r imply that they are distinct and separate with clearly defined responsibilities and functions.
But I believe he is sincere and a child of God as well.
The Trinity is like a Sacred Cow that has been ingrained into Chistians for 1500 years and will not be easily broken.
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18 Jul 15
2 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneWe purchased it recently (within the last month) at the discount price from the TheGreatCourses.com, so maybe it is still available.
If this is the DVD set I think it is, I saw an advertisement for this set at a discounted price in a magazine (either Smithsonian or Arachaeology, I can't remember which) and I was going to call them and give the code for the discount and then I discovered that the end date for the offer had passed. Too bad, I would have been eager to see this set.
Edit ...[text shortened]... on of God, instead He was and is always the Son of God. And is God.
You assume correctly.[/b]
If the CD set is still available at a lower price than the DVD, I would buy the CD because the DVD has very few visuals, and all the visuals are nothing more than some of what he says. The booklet is good, however.
It may also bother you that he ascribes the appearances of the risen Christ to "visions" and discusses the phenomenon of mass hallucinations (as well as discrediting some of the testimony). For example he says that if testimony of appearances including mass appearances are to be given weight, then the appearances of Mary have to be accepted as having happened, even more so than those of Christ. I would doubt that extra-Biblical testimony of Mary's appearances would carry much weight. I am staying away from that issue in this thread, and for that matter am staying away from any disputes. Leaving disputed issues aside, I still found the course to be informative.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterThe Trinity is like a Sacred Cow that has been ingrained into Chistians for 1500 years and will not be easily broken.
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This is a bit offensive. But it is okay. What's really important is the revelation not who is offended.
The Trinity may be a long held view. That in and of itself does not mandate that it is wrong. I could as easily say that a Unitarian view is a long held dogma hammered into some people. Right ? Right.
So let's talk about what's seen there in Scripture and not just wave hands on "tradition". I think the trinity you do not believe in is not the Trinity that I believe in. But we are going into the Old Testament shortly on the Triune God.
I may open up another thread for this purpose and start it with some challenges you made.
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipIts offensive ... to the cow ! 😀
[b] The Trinity is like a Sacred Cow that has been ingrained into Chistians for 1500 years and will not be easily broken.
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This is a bit offensive. But it is okay. What's really important is the revelation not who is offended.
The Trinity may be a long held view. Th ...[text shortened]... d.
I may open up another thread for this purpose and start it with some challenges you made.[/b]
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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I look here for some substance. One line chat cracks are a waste of time for the serious discussers.
Its offensive ... to the cow ! 😀
Find some chat room and pen off your witty one liners. Plenty of teenage websites could accommodate you.
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18 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipI apologize, was not meant to offend anyone, I couldn't find the right word.
[b] The Trinity is like a Sacred Cow that has been ingrained into Chistians for 1500 years and will not be easily broken.
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This is a bit offensive. But it is okay. What's really important is the revelation not who is offended.
The Trinity may be a long held view. Th ...[text shortened]... d.
I may open up another thread for this purpose and start it with some challenges you made.[/b]
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18 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterI might also add that one of my favorite bible teachers is also a Trinitarian and accepts it by faith, but he admits he does not understand it.
I might also add that one of my favorite bible teachers is also a Trinitarian and accepts it by faith, but he admits he does not understand it.
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Okay. That's encouraging to hear perhaps. But though he does not understand the Trinity he believes that the Father -Son - Holy Spirit are God. Though he does not know how to explain how this could be, he believes and he probably has experience.
That is fine. Neither can I explain completely the three-oneness of God. It is very mysterious.
But if you think about it just a little bit, its incomprehension is evidence that we have actually come up against God.
I mean, He is a life above which a greater life cannot be imagined. So why not there be something we can experience of God yet cannot explain completely ?
Says only me? No, says the New Testament too about a great divine mystery --
[1 Cor 2:7,8] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
[Eph 3:3,4] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
[Rom 16:25] Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
[Col 4:3] Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
[Eph 5:32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[Col 1:26,27] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: