When Jesus Became Son of God

Originally posted by sonship
I look here for some substance. One line chat cracks are a waste of time for the serious discussers.

Find some chat room and pen off your witty one liners. Plenty of teenage websites could accommodate you.

You take offence for some man made doctrine not at all mentioned by Christ or the Apostles? Yet you swallow hook line and sinker all the false doctrines which decry the teachings of Christ?

You focus on Christ with your mouth. Your heart is with Witness Lee.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I apologize, was not meant to offend anyone, I couldn't find the right word.

No problem. Now thanks for you reply on the indwelling of God. I will answer it next.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You take offence for some man made doctrine not at all mentioned by Christ or the Apostles? Yet you swallow hook line and sinker all the false doctrines which decry the teachings of Christ?

You focus on Christ with your mouth. Your heart is with Witness Lee.

LOL !! You're a trip. I think I'll do some quoting of Witness Lee just for you, soon.

Originally posted by sonship
No problem. Now thanks for you reply on the indwelling of God. I will answer it next.

I have things to do, will try to get back later..

Originally posted by checkbaiter

If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?

This is the job or position which entails much responsibility that was given Jesus when He was highly exalted as the first born or first in rank. He is t ...[text shortened]... these words anywhere. It is however, found in Greek Mythology. There are Trinities there galore.

If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?

This is the job or position which entails much responsibility that was given Jesus when He was highly exalted as the first born or first in rank. He is the captain of our salvation.

Okay. He is the Captain of Salvation. Good. Where is He leading those following Him ? He is leading them into a corporate expression of what He is - the mingling of God and man.

We should not think that "leading many sons to glory" is just some objective shining. it is the glorious expression of God and man united as one.

" For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author [or Captain] of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb. 2:10)

The Captain is leading the many sons into that state that He Himself occupied - manifesting the mingling of God and man. Yet with the saved it is a matter of salvation. With the Elder Brother it was a matter of incarnation, death, and resurrection and exaltation.

He came, not to make a one way trip but to make a round trip. God became man so that man might become God - in life and nature but not in the Godhead.

Now, what is the son of a horse? A horse.
What is the son of a walrus? A walrus?
What is the son of a gerbil? Why a gerbil of course.
What is the son of a man? A man.

What is the son of God? God.
The sons of God - are God.

They are not God in His Godhead as Father and Source.
They are God as Christ's Body, the saved, transformed, conformed, glorified, and deified.

God became man so that man might become God in life and in nature, but not in His Source or Godhead as unique Eternal Father.

Do you think that the enemy Satan wishes the Christians to learn that they are becomming God by means of God dispensing His life into man ? No indeed. This is what the battle is over.

And to dispense God into man, God is Trinity. The Father as the Source, the Son as the Course, and the Holy Spirit as the transmission, the flow, the dispensing.

Fallen man was not just alienated from knowing God.
Fallen man was alienated from "the life of God" (Eph. 4:18).

How subjective is "the life of God" to God Himself?
How can we say that "the life of God" is not God Himself?

And Jesus the Son said "I am the way and the truth and the LIFE" (John 14:6) And this Divine Life - this Person Christ is dispensing into His people. This is the work of the Captain of salvation - to dispense God into man as He was the mingling of God and man.

He is leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine life united with man.


God is in Christ, Christ is in the believer. Why is this so difficult?
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You did not go quite as far as it says. The believers and God are really mingled:

" In that day [the day of resurrection] you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

Christ is in the Father.
The believers are in Christ Who is in the Father.
AND ... Christ Who is in the Father and in whom the believers are also in, is in the believers.

That is a real mingling.

" ... you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Mee, and I in you."

So Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man by incarnation of God becoming a man, and death and resurrection and exaltation. The believers are the mingling of God and man by way of the full salvation of Christ.


These words you use, triune, incarnate, trinity, the bible is a collection of 66 books to instruct the believer, why are these terms not found therein?
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I don't know. But the revelation of God being the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is written there.

The fact that a useful theological word is not in the Bible is not that meaningful. I think I may have told you before that the term "Substitution" is not found in the Bible. But who can deny that Christ died a substitutionary death for our salvation?

He died as our Substitute. Yet the word Substitute is not found in the Bible. So while I admit rapture or substitution or Trinity are not written in the text.

If you think about it a little bit, I think you might see that this does not argue for the fallacy of such terms. Rather they confirm, in a way, the truth of such terms.

"Its' not written in the Bible, SO ... I don't believe in Trinity" is not too persuasive a argument.

Now I have suspend discussion for a bit.

Originally posted by sonship

If God is not Jesus Christ, and God is so rich, so full and so all possessing of all we need, then what need is there for Jesus Christ to indwell the Christians if Jesus is not God ?

[b]
This is the job or position which entails much responsibility that was given Jesus when He was highly exalted as the first born or first in rank. ...[text shortened]... lieve in Trinity" is not too persuasive a argument.

Now I have suspend discussion for a bit.

I agree with most of your post. Yes, we are sons and daughters of God.
We belong to a new family, we have certain rights being a part of this family. We have some authority, like to cast out demons, heal people of sickness (if we have faith) and many other rights.
Christians are very immature today not knowing who they are in Christ.
Devils tremble when a child of God knows who they are in faith, talking and walking as God's children.
But as much as I appreciate your words, you keep insisting what I reject.
Yes we are...

What is the son of God? God.
The sons of God - are God.

They are not God in His Godhead as Father and Source.

Neither is Jesus God, he is the son. He has been exalted, but not to be God. It does not make sense to me.
If this is true, which I know it is not, God will have to reveal this to me for me to believe it.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Neither is Jesus God, he is the son. He has been exalted, but not to be God. It does not make sense to me.
If this is true, which I know it is not, God will have to reveal this to me for me to believe it.

Well, my God is the man Jesus Christ. He has revealed such to me.

Consider:

" ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ... " ( Second Peter 1:11)

I gladly confess that Jesus is my Lord.
I also gladly confess that Jesus is my Savior.
He is my Lord and Savior.

The same book, and even the same chapter:

" ... our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Second Peter 1:1)

I gladly confess that Jesus is my Savior.
I also gladly confess that Jesus is my God.
Jesus is my God and Savior.

Isn't Jesus "our God and Savior" then ?

How is it that He is "our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" in verse 11 but He is not "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" in verse 1?

Originally posted by sonship

Neither is Jesus God, he is the son. He has been exalted, but not to be God. It does not make sense to me.
If this is true, which I know it is not, God will have to reveal this to me for me to believe it.

Well, my God is the man Jesus Christ. He has revealed such to me.

Consider:

[quote] [b]" ... our Lord and Savior Jesus Ch ...[text shortened]... b] in [b]verse 11 but He is not "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" in verse 1?[/b]

I gladly confess that Jesus is my Lord.
I also gladly confess that Jesus is my Savior.
He is my Lord and Savior.

Amen, so do I.
Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ...

2 Peter 1:1b
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV)

1. Some Trinitarians try to force this verse to “prove” the Trinity by what is known as the Granville Sharp Rule of Greek grammar. We have shown that this is not a valid proof of the Trinity (see Ephesians 5:5, “The Granville Sharp Rule&rdquo😉.

2. This verse is generally translated one of two ways: “Our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Revised Version, RSV, NIV, etc.) and “God and our Savior Jesus Christ (KJV). Although it is possible that the word “God” (Greek = theos) is here being used in its lesser sense, i.e., of a man with divine authority (see Hebrews 1:8), it is more likely that it is referring to the true God as distinct from Jesus Christ. This is certainly the way the context is leading, because the very next verse speaks of them separately.

Alford recognizes that two beings are referred to in the verse and writes, “Undoubtedly, as in Titus 2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both “God” and “Savior” would be predicates of Jesus Christ. But here as there, considerations interpose, which seem to remove the strict grammatical rendering out of the range of probable meaning” [1]

3. There is absolutely no reason to force this verse to make Jesus Christ into God. It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. Furthermore, it is through the righteousness of both God and Christ that we have received our precious faith. It was through God in that it was He who devised the plan of salvation and was righteous in His ways of making it available to us. It was through Christ in that by his righteous life he carried out the plan so that we can have what we now have. Both God and Christ had to be righteous in order for us to enjoy our current status in the faith, and we think the evidence is conclusive that they are both present in the verse.

Broughton and Southgate, p. 202

Buzzard, p. 129

Well, my God is the man Jesus Christ. He has revealed such to me.

I don't know how to answer this comment. I have not had this experience. In fact the Lord Jesus has revealed himself in other ways ...He has delivered me from various incidents, and so forth... nevertheless, I will say again, we will have to agree to disagree..Peace

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Alford recognizes that two beings are referred to in the verse and writes, “Undoubtedly, as in Titus 2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both “God” and “Savior” would be predicates of Jesus Christ. But here as there, considerations interpose, which seem to remove the strict grammatical rendering out of the range of probable meaning” [1]

It is very late so this will be a limited reply.

Your article about refers to scholar Dean Alford. Good. Dean Alford also expounded the Greek in Second Corinthians 3:17,18 to confirm that the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus there.

Here's the passage:

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18 RcV)

Dean Alford -

"The Lord of v. 16, is the Spirit ... which giveth life, v.6: meaning, 'the Lord,' as here spoken of, 'Christ,' here, is the Spirit of Christ."

This demonstrates Dean Alford regarded Christ to be identified as the Spirit of Christ. And he regarded the Holy Spirit to be Christ. This upholds true trinitarian thought. Each of the Three - Father - Son - Holy Spirit lives in the Other.

The Lord is the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the pneumatic presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in the believer.

I will look at the article more carefully tomorrow. However, I have no difficulty at all in confessing Jesus Christ as my God and Savior. If it is arguable that Peter wrote that in Greek, which another opinion, I will consult. It is clear that Jesus Himself identified Himself as the First and the Last - Jehovah God.

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

Compare:

"And when I saw Him [The Son of Man] I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying,

Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17,18)

So the Son of Man (v.13) is still my God and Savior.

If Second Peter is arguable (if it is) Revelation 1:17,18 Jesus identifies Himself to us as Jehovah God, the First and the Last. He has gone through a processs which included human living, death, resurrection, and ascension in glory. And " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) to impart Himself into His redeemed people.

Our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Do you propose that other than "the First" there is ANOTHER "the First" ? - TWO First[s] ?

Do you propose that other than "the Last" there is ANOTHER "the Last" ? - TWO Last[s] ?

If not then why don't you also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ? Do you stagger in unbelief?

Originally posted by sonship

Alford recognizes that two beings are referred to in the verse and writes, “Undoubtedly, as in Titus 2:13, in strict grammatical propriety, both “God” and “Savior” would be predicates of Jesus Christ. But here as there, considerations interpose, which seem to remove the strict grammatical rendering out of the range of probable meaning” [1]

...[text shortened]... don't you also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ? Do you stagger in unbelief?

Jesus IS LIKE God to me. God highly exalted him to this position. Just like it says in Hebrews, Jesus is the "express image" of the living God. But the image is NOT the original.
Jesus is the Son of God as He repeatedly claimed. He never said He is God.
Joseph was a type of Christ...notice the story line...

Gen 41:40-41
You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you." 41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, "See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt."
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Jesus IS LIKE God to me. God highly exalted him to this position. Just like it says in Hebrews, Jesus is the "express image" of the living God. But the image is NOT the original.
Jesus is the Son of God as He repeatedly claimed. He never said He is God.
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The Christian should not remain like a Moslem - only clear about the OBJECTIVE existence of God as an object of worship. This is purely outward and objective.

How about that Jesus became a life giving Spirit to indwell His redeemed ?

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) In this way God can LIVE within His people to be their divine life. So Jesus is not just to me LIKE God up there, out there, outwardly for purely objective consideration.

Rather Jesus is God living within me as Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that gives life - " ... for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6b)

So the last Adam [Christ] becoming a life giving Spirit cannot be another life giving Spirit other than the Holy Spirit Who gives life. Right?

This is how the Triune God DISPENSES divine life INTO people. The purely objective God comes to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus as "a life giving Spirit". And in doing so God abides in the believer. God abides WITHIN the believer. God abides within that we may LIVE by Him and abide in Him.

So the Third of the Trinity - the life giving Holy Spirit BRINGS this objective, outword God INTO us to be our eternal life.

" Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

We need to go on from being just like the Moslems in Islam or the Jehovah's Witnesses. That is only strongly holding to an outward objective concept of God.

God is triune in order to dispense Himself into His redeemed people.

You did not fully answer my questions here about Revelation.

Do you propose that other than "the First" there is ANOTHER "the First" ? - TWO First[s] ?

Do you propose that other than "the Last" there is ANOTHER "the Last" ? - TWO Last[s] ?

If not then why don't you also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ? Do you stagger in unbelief?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Jesus IS LIKE God to me. God highly exalted him to this position. Just like it says in Hebrews, Jesus is the "express image" of the living God. But the image is NOT the original.
Jesus is the Son of God as He repeatedly claimed. He never said He is God.
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The Chr ...[text shortened]... also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ? Do you stagger in unbelief?
[/quote][/b]

I believe God was in Christ and Christ is in me and all believers. I don't see the point here anymore. You will not convince me and visa versa.
You can go ahead and compare me to a Moslem if it makes you feel better, but I am not a Moslem nor a JW.
I will still consider you a brother in Christ.... Peace

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I believe God was in Christ and Christ is in me and all believers. I don't see the point here anymore. You will not convince me and visa versa.
You can go ahead and compare me to a Moslem if it makes you feel better, but I am not a Moslem nor a JW.
I will still consider you a brother in Christ.... Peace

My mentioning of a purely objective concept of God was what I compared to Islam. No, I was not saying you were the same as a Moslem in all regards.

I believe that Christ in me is God in me.

"Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)

I believe that the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are one God. I can not make out any difference subjectively.

Can you ?

Checkbaiter would prefer that I would leave off debating with him. I respect that and will (unless he further addresses me).

But this matter remains for anyone saying he is a Christian to answer Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17,18 -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

Compare:

"And when I saw Him [The Son of Man] I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying,

Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:17,18)

So the Son of Man (v.13) is still my God and Savior.

If Second Peter is arguable (if it is) Revelation 1:17,18 Jesus identifies Himself to us as Jehovah God, the First and the Last. He has gone through a processs which included human living, death, resurrection, and ascension in glory. And " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) to impart Himself into His redeemed people.

Our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Does any Christian propose that other than "the First" there is ANOTHER "the First" ? - TWO First[s] ?

Does any Christian propose that other than "the Last" there is ANOTHER "the Last" ? - TWO Last[s] ?

If not then why don't you also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ?

Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter would prefer that I would leave off debating with him. I respect that and will (unless he further addresses me).

But this matter remains for anyone saying he is a Christian to answer [b]Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17,18 -

[quote] "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

I am the ...[text shortened]... Last[s] ?

If not then why don't you also confess that Jesus is to you God as well as Savior ?

I prefer to leave off debating because as I said you will not change my mind, but I will continue to counter what you post on the subject.


Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.” (NIV)

1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption. When the whole of Scripture is studied, one sees that the same titles are used for God, Christ and men. Examples include “Lord” (see Rom. 10:9) and “Savior” (see Luke 1:47) and “King of kings” (see 1 Tim. 6:14-16). If other titles apply to God, Christ and men without making all of them into “one God,” then there is no reason to assume that this particular title would mean they were one God unless Scripture specifically told us so, which it does not.

2. In the Old Testament, God truly was “the First and the Last.” The meaning of the title is not specifically given, but the key to its meaning is given in Isaiah 41:4, in which God says He has called forth the generations of men, and was with the first of them and is with the last of them.

Isaiah 41:4:
“Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Thus, the Bible connects the phrase “the First and the Last” with calling forth the generations.

While God was the one who called forth the generations in the Old Testament, He has now conferred that authority on His Son. Thus, it is easy to see why the Lord Jesus is called “the First and the Last” in the book of Revelation. It will be Jesus Christ who will call forth the generations of people from the grave to enter in to everlasting life. God gave Jesus authority to raise the dead (John 5:25-27). His voice will raise all dead Christians (1 Thess. 4:16 and 17), and he will change our bodies into new glorious bodies (Phil. 3:20 and 21). However, even when Jesus said he had the authority to raise the dead, he never claimed he had that authority inherently because he was God. He always said that his Father had given authority to him. While teaching about his authority, Jesus Christ was very clear about who was the ultimate authority: “The Son can do nothing by himself…the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself. And He has given him authority to judge” (John 5:19,22,26 and 27). If Jesus had the authority to raise the dead because he was in some way God, he never said so. He said he had his authority because his Father gave it to him. With the authority to raise the generations came the title associated with the existence of the generations, and thus after his resurrection Jesus Christ is called “the First and the Last.”

Morgridge, p. 122

Racovian Catechism, pp. 157-163

Snedeker, p. 469