Originally posted by sonshipIts funny how you cannot see the throne of Christ lasting for ever is not conflicting at all with Christ ruling for a part when he puts down all sin and death and another part where God rules.
[b] Must be hard to have to twist the Bible to suit Witness Lee. I pity your plight
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I quoted some passages from the Bible. Because you cannot deal with them you resort to bringing up the name Witness Lee.
You're the one having the hardship.
The bible sa ...[text shortened]... ave to suspend writing now for a moment. I am not finished discussing that passage with you yet.
Its the SAME THRONE and the SAME KINGDOM. Christ is subject to God in the last part.
But you love to argue with the bible. .. go ahead.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28 KJV)
Christ will deliver the kingdom to God AND BE SUBJECT TO GOD. GOD WILL RULE.
But sonship says NO!
I do believe the passage just as it is stated.
I just don't believe it makes Hebrews 1:8 NOT true.
Do you wish me to say any of this means the Son's kingdom is terminated and He no longer reigns ? Then how can I believe that the Son's kingly "throne is forever and ever" ?
So then how are we to understand that it is subject to God at the end of the millennium? It cannot mean that the son is an enemy of God, not currently subject to God.
it cannot mean that in the past the Son on earth was subject to God, then at the millennium He ceases to be subject to God, and then at the end of it He returns to being subject to God.
It can't mean a suspension of the Son's submission to His Father, not during the church age or during the 1,000 year kingdom.
There exists no competition between God and Christ.
There exists no rivalry between God and Christ.
There exists no confusion between the reigning of God and the reigning of Christ.
Verse 28, take as follows:
Christ, the Son of God, in His humanity is the head of mankind. Christ in His humanity is under the headship of God the Father (First Cor. 11:5)
This is for the government of God's kingdom. After God the Father has subjected all things under the feet of Christ as a resurrected man in glory as spoken in (Eph. 1:22; Heb. 2:7,8) and after Christ as a resurrected man has put all enemies under His feet to execute God the Father's subjection of all things to Him, He as the Son of God, along with His delivering of the kingdom back to God the Father (v.24), will also subject Himself in His divinity to God, who has subjected all things to Him, the Son in His humanity.
This indicates the Son's absolute subjection to the Father.
This indicates the Son's absolute subordination to the Father.
This exalts the Father that God the Father may be all in all.
In all of these, in every detail of this, the throne of the Son's kingdom is still "forever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8) .
The picture we have in the closing book of Revelation is of God as the light shining out from Christ as the redeeming Lamb on the ONE throne for eternity. And that is "the throne [singular] of God and ofthe Lamb".
"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb." (Rev. 21:23)
"And He showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne [singular] of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street." (22:1)
From the ONE throne of the Triune God, flows out of that administration the divine Spirit of God as eternal life into all of the city of God. God as the divine light shines from within the Lamb, the Godman Redeemer. And on the one throne of the Father in the Son dispenses out into the saved the divine nature and life as the bright water of life - the Spirit of life - the Holy Spirit.
The eternal reign of the Trinity is absolutely upheld in the Bible through the millennium and beyond, forever and ever.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Its funny how you cannot see the throne of Christ lasting for ever is not conflicting at all with Christ ruling for a part when he puts down all sin and death and another part where God rules.
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At the commencement of the millennial kingdom we hear the proclamation.
" And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever."
Whoever reigns during the millennial kingdom reigns beyond it also "forever and ever".
Any manifestation of the Son's absolute submission to God the Father has nothing to do with a termination of the reigning of One and the commencement of the Other instead. it is the reigning Triune God throughout the 1,000 years and beyond.
The manifestation of the Son's submission to the Father does not alter this.
Its the SAME THRONE and the SAME KINGDOM. Christ is subject to God in the last part.
But you love to argue with the bible. .. go ahead.
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The New Testament has already "won" any argument concerning this. It is not "my" argument that has won, but the pure word of God wins every time.
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17 Jul 15
Christ will always be the first in rank among all of God's subjects. he will always be God's first begotten Son. They will both rule forever, but the Son will still be subject to the Father.
One more element here is that in the book of Revelation I see God as ruling, Jesus as ruling, but no mention of the holy spirit.
That is because there is no third person of a Trinity, the holy spirit is God's gift to all believers. It is not a person, it is a gift. It is what enables us.
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17 Jul 15
Originally posted by checkbaiterOne more element here is that in the book of Revelation I see God as ruling, Jesus as ruling, but no mention of the holy spirit.
Christ will always be the first in rank among all of God's subjects. he will always be God's first begotten Son. They will both rule forever, but the Son will still be subject to the Father.
One more element here is that in the book of Revelation I see God as ruling, Jesus as ruling, but no mention of the holy spirit.
That is because there is no third ...[text shortened]... spirit is God's gift to all believers. It is not a person, it is a gift. It is what enables us.
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You may imagine the ruling as purely an outward matter. The fact is the in the New Jerusalem the ruling is the ruling of the flowing life of God from within the constituents of the city.
This is the symbolism of the water of life pouring down the middle of the street. The street signifies the walk. And the river flows the way the street goes. Man walks by the dispensing of God's life regulating his walk.
Please recall that in John 7 Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as being as rivers of flowing out of the believers innermost being. Then in Revelation the river of the water of life is pouring out of the throne in the middle of the city. This means the throne of God is installed in the innermost being of every son of God in New Jerusalem. And this flowing Person, the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45[/b] which "the last Adam became" .
The ruling of God the Spirit is the Spirit flowing out of the place of administration. Please compare these two passage:
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
If anyone thirst, let him come to Me and drink, He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet because Jesus had not yet been glorifed." (John 7:37-39)
Here the Holy Spirit is to flow as rivers of living water from the kernel, the nucleus of every believer's innermost spiritual being.
And here we see that in eternity this flow of the river of water of life is from the seat of Divine administration in the eternal city with a street for walking paved around it with pure transparent gold.
"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street,
And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, ... (Rev. 22:1,2a)
You see? Out of our innermost being becomes out of the throne of God, the seat of eternal administration in the new heaven and new earth.
The innermost being of every man and woman as constituents of the New Jerusalem is organically connected to the administrating throne of God, by God's dispensing life. We walk by this river. We walk by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is dispensing from the seat of governmental administration - the throne of God and of the Redeemer - the Lamb.
This is a fuller taste of the foretaste we should be enjoying today. That is walking in the church life, by the divine nature, by the flowing out of the Triune God from our innermost being.
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Originally posted by sonshipHonestly, to me, it is a bit of a stretch. The symbolism may or may not represent the holy spirit but it is not convincing in of itself.
[b] One more element here is that in the book of Revelation I see God as ruling, Jesus as ruling, but no mention of the holy spirit.
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You may imagine the ruling as purely an outward matter. The fact is the in the New Jerusalem the ruling is the ruling of the flowing l ...[text shortened]... hurch life, by the divine nature, by the flowing out of the Triune God from our innermost being.[/b]
There are so many passages that do not make sense in regard to your doctrine, but do make sense when I understand one God and one Lord.
I already posted this, but here it is again...
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Chuck%20LaMattina%20--%20Twenty%20Biblical%20reasons%20why%20the%20doctrine%20of%20the%20Trinity%20is%20wrong.pdf
17 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS357Your point of view is reminiscent of Doubting Thomas' nearly 2,000 years ago to the credit of your inquiring mind and objectivity.
Yes they are different questions. I am using the phrasing of the DVD set I am now watching, that I referenced in the OP. According to the presenter, Ehrman, early followers of Jesus self-identified as Jews. Then some of them started believing Jesus became the Son of God upon being resurrected by God the Father. Then he ascended to heaven to "sit at the right h ...[text shortened]... ve Jesus never "became" the Son of God, instead He was and is always the Son of God. And is God.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterHonestly, to me, it is a bit of a stretch. The symbolism may or may not represent the holy spirit but it is not convincing in of itself.
There are so many passages that do not make sense in regard to your doctrine, but do make sense when I understand one God and one Lord.
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What else could the river of water of ZOE life mean except what Jesus told us it meant - the Spirit ? I think it is mostly a matter of believing the same God who spoke in John 7 is revealing in signs the matters of Revelation 21 and 22.
God Himself depicted as a flowing river occurs a number of times in the Bible:
Psalm 46:7 -
"There is a river whose streams gladden the city of God, The holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High."
Of course the river making glad the city of God is God Himself.
God is also said to be "the springs [or wells] of salvation"
Isaiah 12:3
"Therefore you will draw water with rejoicing From the springs of salvation, And you will say in that day, Give thanks to Jehovah, call upon His name."
The water pouring out of the smitten rock in Exodus 17:6 and Numbers 20:10 was a type of God Himself flowing out of the smitten Christ. Paul says that the spiritual rock from which water came out twice was Christ.
First Cor. 10:4 -
"And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ"
Furthermore the believers are said to be immersed in the Spirit in order to drink of the Spirit. So this river is also a spring and an entire realm into which the Christian is baptized into in order to "drink" in God Himself.
First Corinthians 12:13 -
"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink one Spirit."
So there is no ambiguity about the Spirit of God being a "beverage" to drink. And this "beverage" is flowing out of our innermost being in John 7:39
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive ..."
Of course the river of water of life in Revelation 22:1 means the same Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God for dispensing God's life into man.
There is no "stretch" about it. One just needs an overview of the reoccurring theme of God imparting Himself to His redeemed people as a flowing river.
He says in Jeremiah that His people have forsaken Him the fountain of living waters to sin by making broken cisterns for themselves which cannot hold water. In other words they have replaced God Himself with many other things as vain idols.
Jeremiah 2:13
"For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, THE FOUNTAIN OF LIVING WATERS, To hew out for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns Which hold no water."
Since we are told that God Himself is the fountain of living waters, there is no stretch in understanding that the river of water of life issuing out of the throne of God and the Lamb is God Himself as the Holy Spirit.
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI agree with your entire post here.
Yes, Jesus Christ is "100% man" [Perfect Humanity and Undiminished Deity in hypostatic union in one Person forever].
This is why the wording: "only begotten Son..." means "uniquely born Son" in the Koine Greek of John 3:16.
Edit Footnote: The human mother and father of Jesus Christ did not engage in pre-marital sex nor did they enjoy sexual interco ...[text shortened]... ral other sons as well as daughters as the result of sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph.
However, Checkbaiter said "100% man, not God", meaning 100% man, 0% God. Most Christians believe he was 100% man, 100% God,
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by checkbaiterAlright, but my focus here (and in my previous post) was your "100% man, not God" statement. Then you say that he was born as a result of God "implanting a 'seed' in Mary". Was this 'seed' a part of God, in order for Jesus to be 'the Son of God'? Then was not Jesus at least partially God, being the Son of God, born "of" God?So, let me get this straight. You do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God?
Where did I say that? Of course he is the Son of God.Do you believe in Grace, the concept that without this gift from God, we, as mortal men and creatures of sin, could never 'earn' salvation without the sacrifice of the Son of God?
Of c ...[text shortened]... inal sin must pass through the father to the offspring. This allows Jesus to avoid original sin.
The rest of your post I agree with, but I do not understand this reluctance to state that Jesus was at least partially God.
Originally posted by Rajk999(I take back what I had written here because I found it to be entirely unsubstantiated.)
Correct .. nothing can supersede the teachings of Christ in the Bible. You will notice that in this Triune God teachings there is considerable adding and embellishing that is done to what Christ said to formulate a whole new doctrine not taught in the Bible.
Polite and humble are good qualities but not when the doctrine of which you are certain is being t ...[text shortened]... . Christ and the Apostles certainly did not show politeness when they were similarly confronted.
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS357If this is the DVD set I think it is, I saw an advertisement for this set at a discounted price in a magazine (either Smithsonian or Arachaeology, I can't remember which) and I was going to call them and give the code for the discount and then I discovered that the end date for the offer had passed. Too bad, I would have been eager to see this set.
Yes they are different questions. I am using the phrasing of the DVD set I am now watching, that I referenced in the OP. According to the presenter, Ehrman, early followers of Jesus self-identified as Jews. Then some of them started believing Jesus became the Son of God upon being resurrected by God the Father. Then he ascended to heaven to "sit at the right h ...[text shortened]... ve Jesus never "became" the Son of God, instead He was and is always the Son of God. And is God.
Edit: I just found the ad, it was in the April 2015 issue of Smithsonian. "How Jesus Became God", from The Great Courses. Originally priced at $269.95, discounted to $79.95, with an expiration date of 04/23/15. As I said. too bad. 🙁
I assume you believe Jesus never "became" the Son of God, instead He was and is always the Son of God. And is God.
You assume correctly.
18 Jul 15
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Originally posted by SuzianneYes, I was aware of his meaning as the point of reference for my reply. "100% man, 100% God," absolutely. As undiminished deity and perfect humanity, He is unlike God the Father and God The Holy Spirit which is why He is the unique member of both the Trinity and the human race. The Lord Jesus Christ alone is qualified to be the Mediator between God and man. He intercedes on our behalf.
I agree with your entire post here.
However, Checkbaiter said "100% man, not God", meaning 100% man, 0% God. Most Christians believe he was 100% man, 100% God,
18 Jul 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyPrecisely.
Yes, I was aware of his meaning as the point of reference for my reply. "100% man, 100% God," absolutely. As undiminished deity and perfect humanity, He is unlike God the Father and God The Holy Spirit which is why He is the unique member of both the Trinity and the human race. The Lord Jesus Christ alone is qualified to be the Mediator between God and man. He intercedes on our behalf.
Perhaps also you might be interested in what sonship has written across several threads in this forum about this "God-man" concept and how God seeks to mingle further with man in his Kingdom after Judgement. Of course, I may be murdering the concept even in describing it, but I mention it only because I thought you might find it interesting reading.