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14 Jul 15
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I know I'm a godless heathen so with that out of the way, I am also interested in all this.
In How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman of UNC* says that the following are clear evidence that God made Jesus the Son of God [and Lord and Messiah] by raising him from the dead:
New International Version
Acts 13:33
"...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "You are my son; today I have become your father.'"
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
I was never taught anything about this and wonder what some of the Bible-knowledgeable think about it.
*And no, I'm not trolling. I'm watching the 24 part dvds from The Great Courses.
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15 Jul 15
6 edits
Originally posted by JS357Ehrman is correct, but in a kind of half sense.
I know I'm a godless heathen so with that out of the way, I am also interested in all this.
In How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman of UNC says that the following are clear evidence that God made Jesus the Son of God [and Lord and Messiah] by raising him from the dead:
New International Version
Acts 13:33
"...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by ...[text shortened]... his and wonder what some of the Bible-knowledgeable think about it.
And no, I'm not trolling.
You see the Son of God was from eternity before incarnation. However, He became a man in incarnation to live a perfect life, die a redemptive death, rise from the dead, and come into His believers as a life giving Spirit.
Now in RESURRECTION He was BORN the Firstborn Son of God as the gloried MAN who will went back to the throne of God wearing humanity. That is something He will remain with forever. And this the bible speaks of as a BIRTH.
So though I have not read Erhman's words I agree with the reference to Acts 2:36. And I would add to that Romans 1:3
Concerning His Son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rpm. 1:3,4)
So Christ is the only begotten Son of God.
And Christ is the Firstborn of all creation.
And Christ in resurrection is The Firstborn of the dead..
The verses of Acts 2;35 and Romans 1:3,4 have their emphasis on the THIRD aspect above - In resurrection Christ became the Firstborn Son of God. He was designated in resurrection as the Son of God (the first among many brothers to follow Him into the expression of the deified and glorified glorious humanity.).
I was never taught anything about this and wonder what some of the Bible-knowledgeable think about it.
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In another post I will quote some ministry confirming that Bart Erhman's observation has some validity. That is as long as Erhman also realizes that also at His incarnation and at His baptism He was declared the Son of God too.
Proclaimed Son of God at conception and physical birth:
"And the angel answered and the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you: therefore also the holy thing which is born will be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)
Proclaimed Son of God at baptism:
"And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him,
And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found my delight." (Matt. 3:16,17)
We may add to these His being declared God's Son at His transfiguration before the three disciples (Matt. 17:5) which confirmed Peter's confession earlier (Matt. 16:17) and Nathaniel's also (John 1:49).
Then in RESURRECTION He was designated the Son of God, the FIrstborn Son in resurrection, the Firstborn from the dead. His resurrection should be considered n ot merely COMING BACK to life but a BIRTH of a new matter in the universe - Glorified God/Man born on the day He rose from the dead.
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15 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357I love Sonship as a brother, but I have to respectfully disagree with his explanation.
I know I'm a godless heathen so with that out of the way, I am also interested in all this.
In How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman of UNC* says that the following are clear evidence that God made Jesus the Son of God [and Lord and Messiah] by raising him from the dead:
New International Version
Acts 13:33
"...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by ...[text shortened]... nk about it.
*And no, I'm not trolling. I'm watching the 24 part dvds from The Great Courses.
I believe God is one God.
1 Cor 8:5-6
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
NKJV
Of course because I believe this, I have been accused of being a "Jehovah Witness" which I am not.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
KJV
If you read the following verses closely, you should conclude that in the end, Jesus will be subject unto his father (God)
1 Cor 15:20-28
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV
For further study.... http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-the-trinity
15 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS357I'm interested in the "godless heathen" part of your post.
I know I'm a godless heathen so with that out of the way, I am also interested in all this.
In How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman of UNC* says that the following are clear evidence that God made Jesus the Son of God [and Lord and Messiah] by raising him from the dead:
New International Version
Acts 13:33
"...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by ...[text shortened]... nk about it.
*And no, I'm not trolling. I'm watching the 24 part dvds from The Great Courses.
I heard you say something about "that out of the way", but it just won't "get out of the way!" 😉
At least not for me. "Godless heathen" is not in the Bible. At least not directly. I suppose one can say there are godless heathen around, but it serves no purpose to label anyone as such. You don't believe a creator God exists, but you are interested in who Jesus is.
Good for you. So am I. You want to know who Jesus is. That is a good thing. Just be sure you learn the truth. If and when you do your mind will be blown away with freedom.
I lie not!
15 Jul 15
Originally posted by josephwThe word 'heathen' implies Godless.
I'm interested in the "godless heathen" part of your post.
I heard you say something about "that out of the way", but it just won't "get out of the way!" 😉
At least not for me. "Godless heathen" is not in the Bible. At least not directly. I suppose one can say there are godless heathen around, but it serves no purpose to label anyone as such. You don' ...[text shortened]... you learn the truth. If and when you do your mind will be blown away with freedom.
I lie not!
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15 Jul 15
1 edit
Please excuse the few sloppy typos in my post.
I am even not sure I read accurately the OP or correctly quoted a passage.
These portions of ministry are to help my reply:
From Life Study of Hebrews by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.orgSearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=19E9D8080E
[my bolding]
II. THE MANY BROTHERS
A. Brought Forth in Resurrection
As the many sons of God, we are the many brothers of Christ who is the Firstborn Son of God. He was born to be the Firstborn Son of God through His resurrection (Acts 13:33), and we have been produced to be His many brothers in His resurrection (1 Pet. 1:3). It was after His resurrection that He called His disciples His brothers (John 20:17). Our new birth was not a physical birth but a birth in resurrection.
B. Having the Firstborn Son of God
as the Elder Brother
We, the many sons of God, have the Firstborn Son as our elder Brother (Heb. 2:11; Rom. 8:29). As our elder Brother, He is our model and our example. Because He is our elder Brother, He takes the lead in everything, and we have to follow in His footsteps.
C. Having the Same Life and Nature
as the Firstborn Son of God
As the many sons of God, we have the same life and nature as the Firstborn Son of God (2:11). Since we share the same life and nature as He, we are His many brothers. Because we have the life and nature of God, we are God's many sons. Because we share the same life and nature as the Firstborn does, we are His brothers. To God, we are His many sons; to the Firstborn Son of God, we are His many brothers.
From Life Study of Acts by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=19E9D5070F
The Lord's Two Births
The Lord Jesus has had two births. First, He was born of Mary to be the Son of Man. Then thirty-three and a half years later He was crucified, buried, and raised from among the dead. Through resurrection He had a second birth, for as a man He was born in His resurrection to be the Son of God. Therefore, in His first birth He was born of Mary to be the Son of Man, and in His second birth He was born in resurrection to be the Son of God.
The Only Begotten Son and the Firstborn Son
When some hear that Christ was born to be the Son of God in resurrection, they may have a problem and say, “Was not our Lord the Son of God from eternity?” Yes, from eternity He was the Son of God. Before His first birth, that is, before He was born of Mary to be the Son of Man, He was already the Son of God. The Gospel of John emphasizes the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He is the Son of God eternally. Since He was already the Son of God before His incarnation, why was it necessary for Him to be born the Son of God in His resurrection? If we would answer this question, we need to study the Bible carefully.
Romans 8:29 and Hebrews 1:6 both speak of Christ as the Firstborn. In His second birth the Lord Jesus was born to be the firstborn Son of God. According to the New Testament, He is the Son of God in two aspects. First, He was God's only begotten Son; second, He is now God's firstborn Son. The words “only begotten” indicate that God has only one Son. John 1:18 and 3:16 speak of the only begotten Son of God. Eternally speaking, Christ was the only begotten Son of God. This was His eternal status. But through resurrection He, as a man, was born to be the firstborn Son of God. The word “firstborn” indicates that God now has many sons (Heb. 2:10). We who believe in Christ are the many sons of God and the many brothers of the Lord, the many brothers of the firstborn Son of God (Rom. 8:29).
15 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonshipDo you consider Jesus saying that we must be "born again" as being resurrected?
Please excuse the few sloppy typos in my post.
I am even not sure I read accurately the OP or correctly quoted a passage.
These portions of ministry are to help my reply:
From [b]Life Study of Hebrews by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.orgSearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=19E9D8080E
[my bolding]
II. THE MANY BROTHERS
A. Brou ...[text shortened]... e many brothers of the Lord, the many brothers of the firstborn Son of God (Rom. 8:29).
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15 Jul 15
Originally posted by sonship"You see the Son of God was from eternity before incarnation. However, He became a man in incarnation to live a perfect life, die a redemptive death, rise from the dead, and come into His believers as a life giving Spirit."
Ehrman is correct, but in a kind of half sense.
You see the Son of God was from eternity before incarnation. However, He became a man in incarnation to live a perfect life, die a redemptive death, rise from the dead, and come into His believers as a life giving Spirit.
Now in RESURRECTION He was BORN the Firstborn Son of God as the gloried MAN who w ...[text shortened]... BIRTH of a new matter in the universe - Glorified God/Man born on the day He rose from the dead.
This is why Ehrman considers the visions people reported having of the resurrected Christ to be the beginning of Christianity as a religion.
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16 Jul 15
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Originally posted by checkbaiterNot a problem.
I misunderstood the OP, please disregard my comments. I thought the book you spoke of was "When Jesus became God"...my bad...
What I am referring to is How Jesus Became God, a Learning Company production. It is a secular view of the historical record.
Today's installment is about how Jesus's divinity was considered before the NT started getting written, in the ~20 year "pre-literary" tradition. Biblical evidence was presented for an early belief that Jesus was made divine by God upon His resurrection. Some of Paul's wording in the introduction of Romans is thought by scholars to be quoted from an early creed to this effect, since the wording is uncommon for Paul. This wording suggests what is called Exaltation Christology by Prof. Ehrman, meaning Jesus was exalted as divine Lord, Messiah, Son of God after the Resurrection came to be believed to have happened. Part of the rationale is that these early believers had mistakenly believed that Jesus would not die and would bring about the kingdom in their time, and exaltation to divine status resolved the problem.
I don't know that it makes any difference what the early folks believed, but it's interesting to me.
16 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS357Originally posted by Grampy Bobby Thread 164808 (Page 2)
I know I'm a godless heathen so with that out of the way, I am also interested in all this.
In How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman of UNC* says that the following are clear evidence that God made Jesus the Son of God [and Lord and Messiah] by raising him from the dead:
New International Version
Acts 13:33
"...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by ra ...[text shortened]... think about it.
*And no, I'm not trolling. I'm watching the 24 part dvds from The Great Courses.
What Do You Believe? 3) I believe that God is a Trinity of three Persons: God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit who are all co-equal, co-infinite and co-eternal. And that each Person of the Trinity also has precisely the same attributes, perfections, and authority. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20) / "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” (2Corinthians 13:14)