Why aren't you shouting in the street?

Originally posted by FMF
So sometimes you will engage in disputes with other Christians but not over the notion of "eternal torture" that we both agree is "repulsive"?

Nope. Not that either.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"I think meaning in life is generated by prioritizing..."

God first. FMF second. 😉[/b]

If He reveals Himself or issues any instructions then it will have whatever effect it is intended to have. As you know, I don't think He has revealed Himself to you. I realize you think He has and this creates "meaning" for you, but what represents "meaning" for you represents a spiritual cul-de-sac for me, and it is a cul-de-sac in which I spent a considerable number of years. I gained a better appreciation for the meaning of life having reversed out. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
Yes, a religion: "God, Jesus".

I tend to think the notion of immortality ~ its sheer straw-clutching vanity aside ~ would make life meaningless. I think meaning in life is generated by prioritizing and implementing one's hopes and plans in a realistic and non-superstitious way and it involves a combination of interpersonal relationships - loving and being lov ...[text shortened]... squandered ~ intellectually, emotionally and spiritually ~ on a narrow and far-fetched ideology.

It is still vanity.
Look, I used to think the way you do, about 40 years ago.
To think that no matter what I accomplished in life, I still end up in a hole in the ground and forgotten just seemed illogical.
How is that different from an ant?
They are productive, care for their mates in their short lives, then what?
Just continue to reproduce? Vanity indeed.

I think meaning in life is generated by prioritizing and implementing one's hopes and plans in a realistic and non-superstitious way and it involves a combination of interpersonal relationships - loving and being loved - bringing new life into the world - impacting others in positive and productive ways - always learning, always being curious - always exploring the human condition - starting perhaps with coming to terms with the fact that we all die

???? So what??? You, your family and friends will still die and cease to exist.
What is the end of providing for loved ones after you are dead? You won't even know their outcome! It is madness! Vanity!
I could tell you have not read Ecclesiastes.
It is the whole point of the book.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
It is still vanity.
Look, I used to think the way you do, about 40 years ago.
To think that no matter what I accomplished in life, I still end up in a hole in the ground and forgotten just seemed illogical.
How is that different from an ant?
They are productive, care for their mates in their short lives, then what?
Just continue to reproduce? Vanit ...[text shortened]... dness! Vanity!
I could tell you have not read Ecclesiastes.
It is the whole point of the book.

Your 'definition' of "vanity" makes no sense at all. I think you've turned it on its head. If that's the result of you reading a book called Ecclesiastes, it's neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. If it's only your religion that sets you apart ~ in your mind ~ from ants [or if you seek to compare me to an ant on account of the fact that I don't subscribe to your religion], then you are not experiencing the same quality of intellectual, emotional and spiritual life that I am. You should do what you feel you need to do, but your idea that accepting one's mortality is "vanity" and imagining oneself to be immortal is not "vanity" makes a nonsense of the meaning of the word "vanity".

Originally posted by checkbaiter
To think that no matter what I accomplished in life, I still end up in a hole in the ground and forgotten just seemed illogical.
How is that different from an ant?

Vanity to think that Man is much different from an ant.

Originally posted by josephw
Oh jees dive! I never argued the case that people would burn in torturous agony. But I have argued that people would spend eternity separated from God. The jury is still out on that, especially after reading checkbaiter's posts. He presented a good case for what the second death means in a way that struck a chord with me.

But I'm going to make absolutely ...[text shortened]... turns out I was wrong and you are right, then it will apologize in advance and eat crow. Peace!

Oh no you don't wriggle out of it that easily. You've certainly kept your powder dry on this matter haven't you? Occaisionally making an oblique challenge to those contending against eternal torture but not really weighing in to support the holocaust perspective. That's fine if you are undecided, but don't "oh Jeez" me as though you are tired of my ignoring you clear position; if you have an opinion on this matter then be a little more forthright about it.

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh no you don't wriggle out of it that easily. You've certainly kept your powder dry on this matter haven't you? Occaisionally making an oblique challenge to those contending against eternal torture but not really weighing in to support the holocaust perspective. That's fine if you are undecided, but don't "oh Jeez" me as though you are tired of my ignor ...[text shortened]... clear position; if you have an opinion on this matter then be a little more forthright about it.

Please, give him a break. No one can know any more than what they have been taught or exposed to.
At least rejoice that he is considering it. We are commanded to "put on Christ",
have the "mind of Christ", with love and compassion.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Vanity to think that Man is much different from an ant.

Man is far superior to an ant. I am talking about the cycle of life.

Originally posted by josephw
This is not a "Christian" forum, and I refuse to make a spectical of Jesus Christ by debating publicly on matters of faith.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Now is the time to stand up and contend for the truth not shrink back behind some namby-pamby wishy-washy version of "brotherhood". Most of the atheists have had a negative experience with christianity and that is usually centred around personal or mental abuse of some sort, usually during childhood.

Forcing people to accept Christ because the alternative is he will put into an incinerator for all eternity is one of the biggest filthy lies about our God their is. Those propagating it should be downright ashamed of themselves and those who see the truth should stand up and slap those preaching it.

Matt 11:30
My yoke is easy and my burden light

Matt 7:9
What father would give his son a stone when he asked for a fish

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Please, give him a break. No one can know any more than what they have been taught or exposed to.
At least rejoice that he is considering it. We are commanded to "put on Christ",
have the "mind of Christ", with love and compassion.

OK.

Originally posted by FMF
Your 'definition' of "vanity" makes no sense at all. I think you've turned it on its head. If that's the result of you reading a book called Ecclesiastes, it's neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. If it's only your religion that sets you apart ~ in your mind ~ from ants [or if you seek to compare me to an ant on account of the fact that I don't subsc ...[text shortened]... ing oneself to be immortal is not "vanity" makes a nonsense of the meaning of the word "vanity".

By all means, enjoy your life. Love your wife if it be the case, your friends and family. If your life is fulfilled, by all means enjoy it.
To me, I believe life is much, much more.
I cannot explain in a forum setting what it is like to have Jesus by way of "holy spirit" IN me.
I cannot explain what it is like to walk and talk with the Lord. Life is what you and I have, but multiplied tenfold with God.
I cannot make you relate, I cannot articulate, what it is like to see and have prayers answered, physical healing, comfort, freedom from fear of the unknown.
I wish I could explain what it is like to receive from God, to have Him open your eyes, to understand the needs of others, and then have Him give you wisdom on what to do.

Look at the simple choice God gives in the O.T.
Deut 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days;
NKJV

It is like a simple test, and then in case you miss it, he provides the answer, "choose life"!
There are so many scriptures coming to mind, but I will try to refrain from posting them.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
By all means, enjoy your life. Love your wife if it be the case, your friends and family. If your life is fulfilled, by all means enjoy it.
To me, I believe life is much, much more.

Yes, we are coming from two different angles. My long experience as a person who held strong Christian beliefs ~ but more especially my experience of escaping those beliefs' psychological clutches and thinking for myself ~ makes me regard an unsubstantiated belief that there is "much, much more" [i.e. life after death] is a crutch and a symptom of deeper inadequacies in one's life. But I respect your autonomy and its resulting choices. By all means, enjoy your life by telling yourself that you are immortal. Personally, I think religiosity is the human spirit settling for for way less than what it is capable of.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Man is far superior to an ant. I am talking about the cycle of life.

Man is superior to an ant! Well done.
I said not much different. Meaning both are end products
of physical processes - you know; chemicals, energy, dna
... all that stuff. We are not that special.

& wtf is "the cycle of life" ??? You been watching the Lion King?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Only four things I'm aware of that can be done with any truth: 1) Ignore it; 2) Distort it; 3) Lie about it; or 4) Tell it.

Edit: 5) Or troll it into oblivion with ancillary comments, *asterisks* and ~tildes~ borne of practiced negative volition.

6. Write it on your neighbours wall in blood.

7. Have it tattooed on your back.

8. Record it using a comedy lisp and a German accent.

9. Make a youtube video naked.

10. Use a fake name and email it to lonely women on dating sites.

You really lack imagination Gramps.

Originally posted by FMF
If He reveals Himself or issues any instructions then it will have whatever effect it is intended to have. As you know, I don't think He has revealed Himself to you. I realize you think He has and this creates "meaning" for you, but what represents "meaning" for you represents a spiritual cul-de-sac for me, and it is a cul-de-sac in which I spent a considerable number of years. I gained a better appreciation for the meaning of life having reversed out. 🙂

"I gained a better appreciation for the meaning of life having reversed out."

"Reversed out" meaning you decided that your own revelation of yourself trumped God's revelation of Himself?

If you even suspect that there is a God, how, and by what means do you think you know that? What gives you even an inkling of an idea of who and what God is, or that He even exists, if you see nothing in creation that indicates God's existence?