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Part of the problem is that salvation on an individual basis is disconnected with the overall purpose of Christ to build up His church.
The distortion of not understanding the overall purpose of God, I think, causes some distortion of the eternal purpose of God.
This is why Ephesians, a book on the church, is important to put everything into prospective. But we need help. We need help from those with deeper experience and broader vision.
I need help.
You need help.
Lord knows, Rajk999 needs help.
The Christian public needs help.
And of course the seeking unbelievers need help as well.
The sinner needs help.
He that is moral or religious without God needs help.
I may comment on your paragraph more specifically latter.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidnobody needs saving
The salvation of this human world lies nowhere else than in the human heart, in the human power to reflect, in human meekness and human responsibility.
Vaclav Havel
- rookie
boom!
- rookie (at a much later date)
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Okay, I will try to stick with the OP.
My comments will be skewed if I can toward the subject "Why we can't save ourselves." [/b]
God established a relationship with His creature man. He did not create man bad. He created man good. But He did not create man to be independent.
No life is independent except the life of the Creator Himself. He is ever existing and self existing.
So the good man was neutral. He was between two sources. One source was God as divine and eternal life. The other source was His enemy who has the might of death - the Devil. That one, the Devil, was the highest creature God created. But he rebelled.
God made man neutral and left it to him to CHOOSE between the two sources - God or Satan. Adam moved from a neutral position of innocence to a position joining himself with God's enemy.
In that state he cannot save himself. He cannot overpower the authority of sin and death and darkness that infested, corrupted, infiltrated man's being. Man cannot save himself from that entanglement.
God must come in to rescue man from that entanglement. This is the story of the Bible and the drama of human history. It is the story of God too.
But why cannot man save himself from this situation of being united with Satan?
Why?
In short because it changed his nature. Or it added a foreign element to man's nature that it is impossible for man to eliminate from himself. Not only so. It also involved man in transgression, sins, wrong doings, errors which merit the righteous judgment of the holy and perfect God.
I stop here.
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nobody needs saving
- rookie
Rookkie, tell me. Do you have on you a set of keys ?
Do you have passwords, keys, locks, bolts, alarms and such things?
Why don't you just leave everything you have open and available to anyone to get from you without any such restrictions?
Take out your keys and look at them. And realize that we need to be SAVED. We need to be saved from the guilt of wrong doing. And we need to be saved from the power of wrongdoing which we with such difficulty cannot always resist.
Rookie, how would you like it if here on this screen every moment of your past life was recorded for the world to see? Would there not be at least SOME things you are ashamed that others would know?
I think there are some things which you would not want to be broadcast over this Internet screen to the world. Me too rookie. That is because we need to be saved.
We need to be saved from the guilt of our sins.
We need to be saved from the sheer power of our sins over us.
The good news - Before you were born - God who loves us made provision already for our saving. He didn't wait for us realize or ask.
He made provision, remedy, rescue, forgiveness, and a brand new life for us to live in anticipation that we would receive it. He sent His Son to be our Savior from the guilt and power of sin.
@sonship saidThe bible says there are talkers and there are doers. Talkers like priests and levites talk all the way to damnation. Doers like the good Samaritans DO all the way to eternal life. Clearly you have made your choice.
Part of the problem is that salvation on an individual basis is disconnected with the overall purpose of Christ to build up His church.
The distortion of not understanding the overall purpose of God, I think, causes some distortion of the eternal purpose of God.
This is why Ephesians, a book on the church, is important to put everything into prospective. But w ...[text shortened]... al or religious without God needs help.
I may comment on your paragraph more specifically latter.
@dj2becker saidWhy many believe that "we can't save ourselves" seems rooted in the desire to have a God that serves them whilst having to do little themselves:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believ ...[text shortened]... tified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 3:10-24 ESV
God (via Jesus) provided atonement for transgressions.
Forgiveness for transgressions against others is there for the asking.
Requests for desires to be fulfilled can be made via prayer.
And for those who believe in the "Prosperity Gospel"...
It seems to have gotten more and more self-serving with time.
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It is not a Sunday School where you get to ask stupid questions.
So if you are so high and above the level of Sunday School then give us your point by point rebuttal of the critique I offered of your post above before things get too obscure here.
You know what you wrote. And I unpack-aged it and showed the forum the errors.
And if you cannot do it then ask somebody else to step in for you and give it a shot.
And I stand by my suggestion of your own private inventory where you are in your love for my Lord and Savior Jesus. I don't think you KNOW the Spirit of Christ as an indwelling Lord at all.
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Why we can't save ourselves.
Let's go back to the very beginning of the Bible. When Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil WHY DIDN'T HE HAVE TO ABILITY to set everything RIGHT as it was BEFORE ?
He hid from God. Before he had sweet communion with God.
God had to come asking "Adam WHERE are you?"
That is like "Adam CONSIDER what is going on with you now, cowering, hiding, ashamed, covering yourself with leaves which rot. Before we talked togather. You were innocent. You and I spoke face to face as friends.
Adam, think about where you are NOW ?"
How come Adam didn't just tidy it all up and put it BACK as before when he had not eaten of the forbidden fruit ?
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Why many believe that "we can't save ourselves" seems rooted in the desire to have a God that serves them whilst having to do little themselves:
Instead of deflecting to some genetic fallacy, why not answer the question directly ?
My guess is (unless you correct it) that there is no GOD to begin with to whom or towards whom or BY whom we need saving.
Start there. Does God exist before Whom man needs to be saved to begin with ?
@sonship saidNobody needs give point by point rebuttal for your Satanic garbage. Those who do good works , Christ will reward. End of story. Move along with your nonsense.
@Rajk999
It is not a Sunday School where you get to ask stupid questions.
So if you are so high and above the level of Sunday School then give us your point by point rebuttal of the critique I offered of your post above before things get too obscure here.
You know what you wrote. And I unpack-aged it and showed the forum the errors.
And if y ...[text shortened]... my Lord and Savior Jesus. I don't think you KNOW the Spirit of Christ as an indwelling Lord at all.
@sonship saidThe original question is fallacious in and of itself. It presupposes that "we can't save ourselves". According to God (see Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 18 & 33) people not only can but MUST. According to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry people not only can but MUST.
@ThinkOfOne
Why many believe that "we can't save ourselves" seems rooted in the desire to have a God that serves them whilst having to do little themselves:
Instead of deflecting to some genetic fallacy, why not answer the question directly ?
My guess is (unless you correct it) that there is no GOD to begin with to whom or towards whom or BY whom we ...[text shortened]... saving.
Start there. Does God exist before Whom man needs to be saved to begin with ?
The more interesting question is why -despite the above- many believe that "we can't save ourselves". The answer, as shown by my previous post, is that the self-serving are highly motivated to do so.
@thinkofone saidYour interpretation of scripture causes you to preach another gospel than that the Bible teaches. How was it you put it oh yea,
The original question is fallacious in and of itself. It presupposes that "we can't save ourselves". According to God (see Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 18 & 33) people not only can but MUST. According to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry people not only can but MUST.
The more interesting question is why -despite the above- many believe that "we can't save ourselves". The answer, as shown by my previous post, is that the self-serving are highly motivated to do so.
"To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said. "
To understand the Bible, you need to understand all of it. You pick and choose and in doing so are perverting the gospel, and a perverted gospel saves no one.
@kellyjay saidCorrect. Thats precisely what Jesus said:
Your interpretation of scripture causes you to preach another gospel than that the Bible teaches. How was it you put it oh yea,
"To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said. "
To understand the Bible, you need to understand all of it. You pick and choose and in doing so are perverting the gospel, and a perverted gospel saves no one.
Blessed are those who understand the whole bible: for they shall see God.
(The Fool 5:8 KellyJay Version)
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The original question is fallacious in and of itself.
There is NO indication that you believe in God. Certainly if there is no God there is for you no Savior God. Thus the any "saving" in your philosophy has nothing to do with God.
This renders the whole OP's concern "fallacious" in relation to ANY biblical salvation.
Thanks for nothing. And ...
It presupposes that "we can't save ourselves". According to God (see Isaiah 1, Ezekiel 18 & 33) people not only can but MUST.
Mild surprise to me. I said "mild". I assume that you need to at least find some "God sounding" language to render the OP "fallacious". So you reach out to Ezekiel 18 & 23.
No, it is not unnoticed that by this you do not actually STATE that there IS a God in reality but only pay some veiled lip service of theological language for convention ... "according to God" .
I think I am suppose to be appeased and take the bait like a good naive puew sitter, nod that "Well it SOUNDS like he believes in God" .
Sorry Fast Eddie. Not taking the fake bait of "God sounding language". I could just as easily counter that God says to turn to Him, everyone, and be saved.
" ... a Righteous God and Savior, And there is no one except Me.
Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." ( from Isaiah 45:21c-22)
Look to God, all the ends of the earth and "BE SAVED".
For you ... empty words of falsehood, even though you might sneak in a place in the conversation as an undercover atheist with "according to God ..." and "Jesus while He walked the earth" sounding theological decoys.
A theological Fast Eddie doesn't work on me. According to the God Who is ...
"I, even I, am Jehovah; And there is no SAVIOR besides Me." (Isaiah 43:11)
Why don't you stop treating us like candy store Sunday School kids who can be easily deceived by atheism disguised in false patronizing theological verbiage that SOUNDS like for you - God exists. But really for you Savior God exists not, and a salvation from God exists not. Concealed in you is the belief that the whole Bible is "fallacious" at its core.
According to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry people not only can but MUST.
Bible studies with secretive atheists are futile.
The more interesting question is why -despite the above- many believe that "we can't save ourselves". The answer, as shown by my previous post, is that the self-serving are highly motivated to do so.
The highly motivated atheist may delude himself that any saving has nothing to do with God. And that he can take care of any "salvation" himself. Why you don't come out and admit your unbelief in God is strange.
You are a tare sown among the wheat. (Matthew 13:24-30)
@kellyjay saidYour interpretation of scripture causes you to preach another gospel than that the Bible teaches.
Your interpretation of scripture causes you to preach another gospel than that the Bible teaches. How was it you put it oh yea,
"To understand what Jesus is saying there, one needs to understand it in context of other things He said. "
To understand the Bible, you need to understand all of it. You pick and choose and in doing so are perverting the gospel, and a perverted gospel saves no one.
Your interpretation of scripture causes you to preach another gospel than what JESUS taught while He preached HIS GOSPEL.
To understand the Bible, you need to understand all of it. You pick and choose and in doing so are perverting the gospel, and a perverted gospel saves no one.
To understand the GOSPEL PREACHED BY JESUS, you need to understand all of it. You pick and choose and in doing so are perverting HIS gospel, and a perverted gospel saves no one.
People cry "Lord, Lord" and don't LISTEN to what HE says - no less DO what HE says.
People claim to be "followers of Jesus", yet they follow the gospel preached by others instead of following the gospel preached by Jesus during His mininstry.