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06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Your premise that atheists have never opened a bible is greatly flawed (unless you believe I obtained my Theology degree without having done so).
The Bill Hicks quote is also uninformed and intellectually shallow. But that’s often the result when atheists who have never opened a Bible try to pontificate about God and Christianity.
Carl Sagan said God did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, implying or directly saying (I forget which) that He wanted them ignorant. Of course, ...[text shortened]... was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - not just knowledge - which is quite different.
Theists often struggle with the notion that an atheist may have not only read, but studied the Bible, and yet remained an atheist.
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Originally posted by @fmfIf Eichmann had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed (not just repented,) then yes, I believe he would have been saved.
What about dj2becker's view [posted when he was using the screen name Fetchmyjunk] that if Adolf Eichmann, one of the major organizers of the Holocaust, had repented on his deathbed, he could have been "saved"? I'm not going to go find the quote for you and I'm sure that dj2becker will confirm that it is his belief, but going on how I have described it, do you agree?
Some people find Christ early in life; some people find Christ late in life. I’m sure some people have found Christ on their deathbed. It makes no difference. There is no time limit that one must surpass to be saved.
“For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.“
(Matthew 20:1-16)
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06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @fmfIt’s an interesting concept. I was referring, though, to physical death.
"Dying"? Do you subscribe to Annihilationism then?
I honestly haven’t looked into annihilationism enough (or the concept of people with unforgiven sin spending an eternity in hell) to have a strong opinion.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI obviously wasn’t referring to all atheists, nor could that reasonably be inferred from what I wrote.
Your premise that atheists have never opened a bible is greatly flawed (unless you believe I obtained my Theology degree without having done so).
Theists often struggle with the notion that an atheist may have not only read, but studied the Bible, and yet remained an atheist.
On your latter point, there is Biblical support for the concept that people are called to Christ. There is also the doctrine of predestination.
I believe I was led to Christ but have less confidence in the veracity of predestination because it seems to contradict Christ’s instruction re: the Great Commission. If predestination is true, the Great Commission would appear to be busy work.
I believe, though I really haven’t studied this, that the Biblical verses that seem to support predestination can be interpreted to mean that *some* people are predestined to accept Christ, while the rest have free will.
I try not to get too much into theological questions because I believe there are some things we either are not capable of knowing/understanding or God has chosen not to reveal to us. And I’m all right with that.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Then presumably you believe Adolf Hitler could have been "saved" by repenting and "accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed" too. But nevermind that, what about Adolf Eichmann being "forgiven" and "saved" in this way; how can you frame it as "justice" ~ with his X million victims in mind, in particular?
If Eichmann had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed (not just repented,) then yes, I believe he would have been saved.
Originally posted by @romans1009Well then, were you referring to Bill Hicks? He was brought up a Christian. Your reaction to the quote relies on your implied assertion that he never opened a Bible before he started to "pontificate about God and Christianity" having grown up and thought better of it.
I obviously wasn’t referring to all atheists, nor could that reasonably be inferred from what I wrote.
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<Then presumably you believe Adolf Hitler could have been "saved" by repenting and "accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed" too.>
Correct, but, again, we’re talking about believing in Christ in the heart and not the head. I realize you have a problem with this notion, so let’s instead say a genuine, strong and sincere belief in Christ.
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<But nevermind that, what about Adolf Eichmann being "forgiven" and "saved" in this way; how can you frame it as "justice" ~ with his X million victims in mind, in particular?>
Justice was served because Christ paid the penalty for Eichmann’s (and everyone else’s) sins - and not just sins against God but sins against each other, which really amount to the same thing. Also worth noting is that no sin is beyond God’s ability to forgive (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.)
More to the point on Eichmann’s victims: They were not without sin (every human being is tainted by original sin and their own individual sins) and I think you have to view our lives against eternity. Not to be blunt, but our lives are very short and, apart from knowing God and leading others to Him, pretty inconsequential.
“Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.”
(James 4:14)
I said in another post that there is Biblical support for the idea that God leads people to Him; that no one can know God on his or her own without this leading. If that is the case, it may be that Eichmann was not led to God.
Would be interesting to know if any truly monstrous people professed faith in Christ after their crimes.
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06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @fmfThe Hicks quote is so Biblically ignorant that I figured he hadn’t cracked open a Bible. How he could have read the Bible and offered a comment like that, which ignores people who questioned God and the Scriptures and which ignores the love God has demonstrated for His creation, is beyond me.
Well then, were you referring to Bill Hicks? He was brought up a Christian. Your reaction to the quote relies on your implied assertion that he never opened a Bible before he started to "pontificate about God and Christianity" having grown up and thought better of it.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Justice was served because Christ paid the penalty for Eichmann’s (and everyone else’s) sins - and not just sins against God but sins against each other, which really amount to the same thing. Also worth noting is that no sin is beyond God’s ability to forgive (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.)
More to the point on Eichmann’s victims: They were not without sin (every human being is tainted by original sin and their own individual sins) and I think you have to view our lives against eternity. Not to be blunt, but our lives are very short and, apart from knowing God and leading others to Him, pretty inconsequential.
You're talking about the Holocaust here, right?
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Originally posted by @fmfYes. Isn’t it true that no one is without sin and that our lives are extremely short when viewed against eternity?
[b] Justice was served because Christ paid the penalty for Eichmann’s (and everyone else’s) sins - and not just sins against God but sins against each other, which really amount to the same thing. Also worth noting is that no sin is beyond God’s ability to forgive (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.)
More to the point on Eichmann’s victims: They were ...[text shortened]... others to Him, pretty inconsequential.
You're talking about the Holocaust here, right?[/b]
Isn’t it also true according to Christianity that Christ paid the penalty for everyone’s sins?
My post may seem callous but I don’t think it was inaccurate.
And if the concept that God leads people to Him (or even predestination) is accurate and Eichmann was not led to Christ, then he would be spending an eternity in hell.
Would be interesting to know if the OP or you would deem that punishment too severe.
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Here’s the rest of my earlier post you chose not to quote. Why was that? Trying to falsely portray me as an anti-Semite?
“Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.”
(James 4:14)
I said in another post that there is Biblical support for the idea that God leads people to Him; that no one can know God on his or her own without this leading. If that is the case, it may be that Eichmann was not led to God.
Would be interesting to know if any truly monstrous people professed faith in Christ after their crimes.“
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009There's also the notion of purgatory within Catholicism. I imagine doing all of the evil would say something.
<Then presumably you believe Adolf Hitler could have been "saved" by repenting and "accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour on his deathbed" too.>
Correct, but, again, we’re talking about believing in Christ in the heart and not the head. I realize you have a problem with this notion, so let’s instead say a genuine, strong and sincere belief in Christ.
But yeah, the heart issue is important, and, moreover, I think people have an immature understanding of evil.
Ascribing it solely to one person is juvenile.
The evil that infected Hitler, Pol Pol, Mao, etc., is hardly unique. It isn't as if Hitler manipulated people endlessly into doing great evil.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterLol, no, it's fine. I don't mind being "recognized." I just want a handle, not a name.
I think you have certainly shat in your own nest, that's for sure. However I would caution about a name change unless you intend to completely change your positing style as you will be recognised.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterSo how do you deal with Jesus Himself speaking about hell?
Any scripture you present on it is irrelevant; it won't happen, the teaching is wrong and morally bankrupt.
Do you just reject aspects of the Bible and cherry pick what to follow?