Reds Win the World Series thread

Originally posted by no1marauder
I already gave you the HRs per AB numbers and the BA with RISP.

Sorry, the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.

Pro-rated isn't performance factual. It is speculation.

Give me the real numbers and skip the hyperbola.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Sorry, the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.

Pro-rated isn't performance factual. It is speculation.

Give me the real numbers and skip the hyperbola.

I didn't "pro-rate" anything. If you want to talk about who the "best hitter" is I assume you mean who when they walk up to bat is going to do the best job. That's Votto.

But even by your highly dubious standard, Votto is a little better. Since he became a full time starter in 2008, he's driven in 429 runs. Hamilton has 425 RBIs and Kemp 420 in the same time period.

EDIT: Actually Joey has driven in 412 so if your only standard is RBIs, then Hamilton and Kemp are a tiny bit better hitters. I know of no baseball person who thinks RBIs are a good comparison between hitters on different teams esp. when one team has mostly been a sub-.500 club and the other has went to 2 World Series.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I didn't "pro-rate" anything. If you want to talk about who the "best hitter" is I assume you mean who when they walk up to bat is going to do the best job. That's Votto.

But even by your highly dubious standard, Votto is a little better. Since he became a full time starter in 2008, he's driven in 429 runs. Hamilton has 425 RBIs and Kemp 42 ...[text shortened]... . when one team has mostly been a sub-.500 club and the other has went to 2 World Series.

OK, I have compiled the stats for all three from 2008 through present, and Votto does
not come out on top.

If I could figure out a way to print the stats without them getting jumble in this format
I would do it for every season for you. You can verify the season totals do accumulate
to mine if you like.

These are the Cumulative TOTALS from 2008 through present for each player:

Player................AB......Hits...HR.....RBI.......TB.....SLG %.....AVG......Games played

Votto................2274....711...122...412......1258.... .553...... .313...............634

Hamilton..........2122.....670...117...426......1182.... .557...... .316...............540

Kemp..............2533.....743...123...420......1284.... .507...... .293...............671


Please note that Josh Hamilton is CLEARLY the BEST HITTER during this time
He trails Votto in HR's by 5, Leads Votto in RBI by 14, has a better slugging %
a better batting average and he played 96 fewer games to accomplish those
number

I will concede that Votto actually comes out second during that period ahead of Kemp.
If I had to choose third between these three players, I would still get a great player.

Looking at the numbers, Josh Hamilton is clearly the best hitter.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
OK, I have compiled the stats for all three from 2008 through present, and Votto does
not come out on top.

If I could figure out a way to print the stats without them getting jumble in this format
I would do it for every season for you. You can verify the season totals do accumulate
to mine if you like.

These are the Cumulative TOTALS from 200 ...[text shortened]... still get a great player.

Looking at the numbers, Josh Hamilton is clearly the best hitter.

Gee whatever happened to:

Sorry, the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.


Where's OBP, SC?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Gee whatever happened to:

Sorry, the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.


Where's OBP, SC?

Surely you are kidding with OBP?
Walks and HBP do not show hitting prowess and never have.
They are indicative of a good batting eye, or fear/careful pitching by the opposition.
However, they also affect RBI production as well.

OBP tends to be a more viable stat for lead off hitters and table setters.

You are so stubborn that you fail to admit the numbers don't lie.
Hamilton was superior to Votto.

EDIT: I have NEVER heard your axiom "the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.
That must be something you contrived. Clearly, the most AB's would be derived by
the top 3 hitters in the order. As a general rule, your best hitter would hit 3rd or 4th
in the line up.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
OK, I have compiled the stats for all three from 2008 through present, and Votto does
not come out on top.

If I could figure out a way to print the stats without them getting jumble in this format
I would do it for every season for you. You can verify the season totals do accumulate
to mine if you like.

These are the Cumulative TOTALS from 200 ...[text shortened]... still get a great player.

Looking at the numbers, Josh Hamilton is clearly the best hitter.

Okay, now let's look at number that actually matter

Career ABs are pretty much the same (2,420 to 2,367), so comparisons are fair.

.................HR...........BA............OBP...........SLG.............OPS+

Votto........126..........312...........408............551.............153

Hamilton...136..........313...........370............557..............139

(source: baseballreference.com)

Votto is clearly the more productive player and I don't see how it's even debatable.

Kemp is a solid cut below them both. .296/.354/.505 and a 129 OPS+ (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kempma01.shtml)

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Surely you are kidding with OBP?
Walks and HBP do not show hitting prowess and never have.
They are indicative of a good batting eye, or fear/careful pitching by the opposition.
However, they also affect RBI production as well.

OBP tends to be a more viable stat for lead off hitters and table setters.

You are so stubborn that you fail to admit ters in the order. As a general rule, your best hitter would hit 3rd or 4th
in the line up.

Demeaning OBP as a stat is wrong. Walking is a key productive element of a hitter's game and whether it tests skills directly related to swinging the bat couldn't be less relevant. Taking pitches out of the strike zone is part of being a productive hitter.

According to Rob Neyer and Eddie Epstein, OBP is such an important stat that, in terms of correlation to winning games (which is, after all, the point of the game), OBP is comparable in value to ERA!!!

From the book "Baseball Dynasties"

"On-base percentage correlates better with winning than any other percentage or rate statistic, including ERA."

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71129&page=2

(I know that link is to some random message board, but it's in the original book which I have at home, but I can't cite directly to it online.)

Originally posted by shortcircuit
EDIT: I have NEVER heard your axiom "the best hitters will obtain the maximum AB's.
That must be something you contrived. Clearly, the most AB's would be derived by
the top 3 hitters in the order. As a general rule, your best hitter would hit 3rd or 4th
in the line up.

Uh, SC...

That "axiom" was yours, from the bottom of the previous page.

Originally posted by sh76
Uh, SC...

That "axiom" was yours, from the bottom of the previous page.

That was not my axiom, that was rebutting No.1's average per AB baloney.

Originally posted by sh76
Okay, now let's look at number that actually matter

Career ABs are pretty much the same (2,420 to 2,367), so comparisons are fair.

.................HR...........BA............OBP...........SLG.............OPS+

Votto........126..........312...........408............551.............153

Hamilton...136..........313...........370............557......... h. .296/.354/.505 and a 129 OPS+ (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kempma01.shtml)

You are nuts!!!

Can you not see that Hamilton's numbers were generated in 96 FEWER games
than Votto??

LMAO

edit: My numbers come from the same source as yours. Try using 2008 through
present and you will generate the same numbers I did.

Originally posted by sh76
Demeaning OBP as a stat is absurd. Walking is a key productive element of a hitter's game and whether it tests skills directly related to swinging the bat couldn't be less relevant. Taking pitches out of the strike zone is part of being a productive hitter.

According to Rob Neyer and Eddie Epstein, OBP is such an important stat that, in terms of correlation ...[text shortened]... it's in the original book which I have at home, but I can't cite directly to it online.)

The "best" hitter is the one who dominates in ALL categories.

Rod Carew was the "best pure hitter" of his time, but he wasn't "the best hitter".
He didn't hit for power or drive in runs.

Wade Boggs, Paul Molitor, any top lead off hitter (with the exception of Ricky Henderson)
are not top run producers and do not typically hit for big power.

This is the discrimination I make, and so do many experts.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
You are nuts!!!

Can you not see that Hamilton's numbers were generated in [b]96 FEWER games
than Votto??

LMAO

edit: My numbers come from the same source as yours. Try using 2008 through
present and you will generate the same numbers I did.[/b]

First of all, it's the number of ABs that matters, not games.

Second, all of those except HRs are percentage statistics, for which having more games and ABs is no advantage at all.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
The "best" hitter is the one who dominates in ALL categories.

Rod Carew was the "best pure hitter" of his time, but he wasn't "the best hitter".
He didn't hit for power or drive in runs.

Wade Boggs, Paul Molitor, any top lead off hitter (with the exception of Ricky Henderson)
are not top run producers and do not typically hit for big power.

This is the discrimination I make, and so do many experts.

You can define your arguments any way you like but to a conventional baseball analyst, the most productive person when he steps to the plate is the best hitter. Votto and Hamilton are almost identical in power numbers but Votto has a big edge in walks and thus OBP.

That makes Votto a better offensive player. All the goalpost moving in the world isn't going to change that.

Originally posted by sh76
First of all, it's the number of ABs that matters, not games.

Second, all of those except HRs are percentage statistics, for which having more games and ABs is no advantage at all.

Are you thick???

If a guy customarily gets 4 AB's per game and he misses 96 games....he missed out
on nearly 400 AB's.

Even you should be able to figure out that his production during those missed games
would severely have skewed this in Hamilton's favor.

Originally posted by sh76
You can define your illusions any way you like but to a conventional baseball analyst, the most productive person when he steps to the plate is the best hitter. Votto and Hamilton are almost identical in power numbers but Votto has a big edge in walks and thus OBP.

That makes Votto a better offensive player. All the goalpost moving in the world isn't going to change that.

Well, hate to break this to you, but if you ask the experts right now how they rank
the best hitters in baseball it will be Hamilton, Kemp, Votto.

Don't believe, check it out. Hell turn up your volume when they discuss it on ESPN
or the games.