As defeat looms Putin lashes out

@kevcvs57 said
What you Americans do not get is that nato is a voluntary alliance of 30 nations. Russia has its nuclear weapons right on the door step of that alliance, who is Putin to get mad about other nations having nukes on his doorstep,
Nukes on his doorstep is a perfectly logical reaction to a nation that has built its foreign policy around the use of nukes.
All Putin has to do to avoid grief from nato is stay inside his own borders in relation to his nato neighbours.

Funny, that strategy i.e. stay inside his own borders in relation to his nato neighbours - didn't stop NATO from attacking Serbia and Libya.

Your response really is hypocritical given that the discussion centers around an incident where the United States reacted violently when nukes were placed on its doorstep.

@metal-brain said
Did you see it when that happened in Sirte and Fallujah?
Why are invasions only bad when the other side invades other nations?

Who is saying it’s only bad when the other side does it?
Those were overwhelmingly US forces in Sirte and Fallujah why should Ukraine suffer to ease the conscience of the US. I do not get this logic.
Russia has quite clearly and loudly declared the west and nato as his enemy and as a consequence is killing Ukrainian men women and children in much the same way as he is killing them in Syria.
Destroying Putin’s ability to wage war on both civilian populations cannot be a bad thing just because we were twisted and stupid enough to invade another relatively defenceless country and kill a whole load of other innocent civilians.
Your logic does not add up its like you think that Putin has the right to kill Ukrainians as a punishment for the west invading Iraq 🤷🏻‍♂️
The West and NATO has a chance to be on the side of the angels but turds like you want us to side with Putin’s demons.

@kevcvs57 said
Who is saying it’s only bad when the other side does it?
Those were overwhelmingly US forces in Sirte and Fallujah why should Ukraine suffer to ease the conscience of the US. I do not get this logic.
Russia has quite clearly and loudly declared the west and nato as his enemy and as a consequence is killing Ukrainian men women and children in much the same way as he is kill ...[text shortened]... has a chance to be on the side of the angels but turds like you want us to side with Putin’s demons.

Hundreds of millions of people are likely to be right "on the side of angels" if your policy preferences are put into place.

@no1marauder said
Funny, that strategy i.e. stay inside his own borders in relation to his nato neighbours - didn't stop NATO from attacking Serbia and Libya.

Your response really is hypocritical given that the discussion centers around an incident where the United States reacted violently when nukes were placed on its doorstep.

Your not making any sense though why does NATO carrying out limited attacks on Serbia and Libya, even if you think that was wrong or misguided, excuse Putin for invading Ukraine and killing civilians for the purpose crushing its sovereignty and democracy.
Your saying it’s ok for Putin to kill Ukrainians because you killed some Serbs and Libyans 🤷🏻‍♂️
Do you think we should have have sanctioned ourselves, what point are you trying to make with this whataboutusim.

@kevcvs57 said
Your not making any sense though why does NATO carrying out limited attacks on Serbia and Libya, even if you think that was wrong or misguided, excuse Putin for invading Ukraine and killing civilians for the purpose crushing its sovereignty and democracy.
Your saying it’s ok for Putin to kill Ukrainians because you killed some Serbs and Libyans 🤷🏻‍♂️
Do you think we should have have sanctioned ourselves, what point are you trying to make with this whataboutusim.

How many times do I have to say the Russian invasion of the Ukraine is unjustified before you stop lying and claiming I'm justifying it?

I think your reasoning is simplistic and dead wrong - Russia has little interest in whether the Ukraine is a "democracy" or not (it is a flawed one with a poor human rights record which you ignore). Russia is interested in its own security and the rights of Russians in neighboring countries though. A negotiated agreement could address those real concerns while your version of Putin wanting to sweep across Europe to the English Channel leaves little recourse but all out general war between the West and Russia (which has a strong likelihood of resulting in nuclear catastrophe).

@no1marauder said
Funny, that strategy i.e. stay inside his own borders in relation to his nato neighbours - didn't stop NATO from attacking Serbia and Libya.

Your response really is hypocritical given that the discussion centers around an incident where the United States reacted violently when nukes were placed on its doorstep.

Your being so disingenuous about this that your straying very close to MB territory.
NATO will not even put a no fly zone in place over Ukraine for fear of a potential 3rd world / nuclear conflict giving the lie to this BS argument that NATO is a threat to Russia, or that Putin even believes in his darkest nightmares that NATO would attack Russia.
The only thing NATO threatens is Russias westward expansion and the only threat that Ukraine poses is in its democracy and its potential to become a prosperous outward looking liberal European nation under the auspices of the EU. For those reasons and those reasons alone Putin is waging a war of extinction on the Ukrainian people. And folks like you supposedly Liberal Democrats are doing all you can to excuse him for it by constantly berating the only alliance that is standing between him and the rest of Central and Eastern Europe.

@kevcvs57 said
Your being so disingenuous about this that your straying very close to MB territory.
NATO will not even put a no fly zone in place over Ukraine for fear of a potential 3rd world / nuclear conflict giving the lie to this BS argument that NATO is a threat to Russia, or that Putin even believes in his darkest nightmares that NATO would attack Russia.
The only thing NATO threa ...[text shortened]... berating the only alliance that is standing between him and the rest of Central and Eastern Europe.

This is all hysterical, irrational nonsense which I believe I have already sufficiently debunked.

@no1marauder said
How many times do I have to say the Russian invasion of the Ukraine is unjustified before you stop lying and claiming I'm justifying it?

Until you stop giving justifications for it, even as you claim it is unjustified.

@shallow-blue said
Until you stop giving justifications for it, even as you claim it is unjustified.

The West and the Ukraine certainly provoked Russia by actions I have already spelled out but that did not justify Russia resorting to military force.

War is justified only in immediate self-defense or by the People of a country to overthrow an occupation or an internal tyranny. Neither is applicable here.

@no1marauder said
Hundreds of millions of people are likely to be right "on the side of angels" if your policy preferences are put into place.

No that is exactly the risk we run if appeasers and pro Putin westerners get their wish.

@no1marauder said
The West and the Ukraine certainly provoked Russia by actions I have already spelled out but that did not justify Russia resorting to military force.

War is justified only in immediate self-defense or by the People of a country to overthrow an occupation or an internal tyranny. Neither is applicable here.

By provoked I take it you mean existing and being democracies on his border. Or are you still pushing the fantastical lie that nato was ever going to attack Russia.

@kevcvs57 said
No that is exactly the risk we run if appeasers and pro Putin westerners get their wish.

Why should you care about Ukraine? You have nothing to gain from a proxy war with Russia unless you are invested in Rathyeon or Lockheed Martin.

@no1marauder said
How many times do I have to say the Russian invasion of the Ukraine is unjustified before you stop lying and claiming I'm justifying it?

I think your reasoning is simplistic and dead wrong - Russia has little interest in whether the Ukraine is a "democracy" or not (it is a flawed one with a poor human rights record which you ignore). Russia is interested in its own sec ...[text shortened]... war between the West and Russia (which has a strong likelihood of resulting in nuclear catastrophe).

Oh I see so your sudden obsession with getting NATO disbanded and smothering any critique of Putin’s war in Ukraine with anti west rants is just an honest coincidence and the two things are unrelated 🤔
No I don’t think so, you either back Putin or Ukraine on this one. Forget NATO versus the rest of the world and focus on the destruction being wrought right now by the Russian war machine in Ukraine.

@no1marauder said
How many times do I have to say the Russian invasion of the Ukraine is unjustified before you stop lying and claiming I'm justifying it?

I think your reasoning is simplistic and dead wrong - Russia has little interest in whether the Ukraine is a "democracy" or not (it is a flawed one with a poor human rights record which you ignore). Russia is interested in its own sec ...[text shortened]... war between the West and Russia (which has a strong likelihood of resulting in nuclear catastrophe).

“ I think your reasoning is simplistic and dead wrong - Russia has little interest in whether the Ukraine is a "democracy" or not (it is a flawed one with a poor human rights record which you ignore). Russia is interested in its own sec ...[text shortened]... war between the West and Russia (which has a strong likelihood of resulting in nuclear catastrophe).”
Your thinking is a lot more flawed than mine. You seem to think that we should abandon Eastern European’s to the mercy of Putin for fear of him using his nukes thus condemning his own beloved nation to a nuclear winter.
If your correct and your prepared to give Putin a free hand in Europe then the nuclear proliferation treaty should be torn up and every state has the right to its own deterrent if those that posses them are going to use the threat of them to invade and slaughter non nuclear nations.
Do you remember Ukraine giving up its soviet era nukes in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and NATO?

@kevcvs57 said
“ I think your reasoning is simplistic and dead wrong - Russia has little interest in whether the Ukraine is a "democracy" or not (it is a flawed one with a poor human rights record which you ignore). Russia is interested in its own sec war between the West and Russia (which has a strong likelihood of resulting in nuclear catastrophe).”
Your thinking is a lot more flawed th ...[text shortened]... ber Ukraine giving up its soviet era nukes in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and NATO?

Do you remember that that was when Ukraine had written into its Constitution that it was a permanent neutral State and would never join any military alliance?