20 Apr 09
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Originally posted by SeitseHow exactly are you a political refugee anyway?
Don't you try to teach a Mexican political refugee about Mexico, fool.
More importantly, how do your political beliefs outweigh the need for economic growth through tough political reforms that all the millions of economic refugees have long needed?
I think we can only agree that Samantha is wrong and sam the clan's argument is ridiculous.
Misquoting Calderon, aren't you, Sam the Clan?
20 Apr 09
1 edit
I see you just repeat the arguments of Calderon and of the right wing ruling party (PAN), backed up by the Mexican plutocracy and the Catholic church (what a surprise!).
Just as a note, and unless you are one of the brainwashed ones (or part of the Mexican elite), the 2006 election was a big, fat FRAUD...
http://electoralfraudmexico.blogspot.com/
More than 40 million Mexicans in poverty, and thousands of dead people due to persecution and drug wars, think differently than the official version.
20 Apr 09
Originally posted by eljefejesusDon't be silly. What I mean by a closed border is one that is closed to illegal immigration, not the legal kind. What I want is a return to lawful behavior by people on both sides of the border. That can't be achieved until the US actually gains control of who and what crosses that border in both directions.
Ignorance is bliss to you. Why don't we banish traveling outside of the country in the US, if we Americans are so bad for the rest of the world?
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by SeitseSuppose you believe the PRD faithful who belief that they were entitled to win because they don't think that their charismatic hero Andre Manuel Lopez Obrador had quite dropped in the polls enough by the time of the election, regardless of all the facts that he did...
I see you just repeat the arguments of Calderon and of the right wing ruling party (PAN), backed up by the Mexican plutocracy and the Catholic church (what a surprise!).
Just as a note, and unless you are one of the brainwashed ones (or part of the Mexican elite), the 2006 election was a big, fat [b]FRAUD...
http://electoralfraudmexico.blogspot.com/ ...[text shortened]... ds of dead people due to persecution and drug wars, think differently than the official version.[/b]
still I repeat, how are you a political refugee?
and how do your party-line biases outweigh the needs of all the current and future economic refugees from mexico?
Now if you were not a biased partisan who has simply accepted the PRD-fanatical wing's conspiracy theories, then you would be open to debate about the election.
Anyone can throw in their opinions, please feel free.
Let's check our sources, shall we?
First you cite a partisan blog, which itself makes accusations and implications without presenting any proof for their conspiracy theories, just making unsubstantiated claims.
In comparison, let me cite the international observers including Americans AND Europeans, who found the elections to be fair.
Let's not forget that the PAN and the PRI and the green party all accepted the results.... the only major party that didn't was the PRD, which hoped it could catch to its early lead in the polls before all its blunders.
If AMLO had debated calderon rather than refuse to debate, he would have held up stronger in the polls, but that was one major gaffe that was exploited (fairly) within the debate. The second debate, AMLO did an about face to contain the damage.
AMLO was (within the rules of the game) criticized in campaign commercials. He also was the main target because he was in the lead (though declining). He even got a little help (hindrance) from Chavez, who attacked Mexico's President while AMLO attacked Calderon, leading to one of the most effective commercials that damaged AMLO by the comparison of these two politician's negativity towards these leaders as similar and anti-Mexican leader.
You may cite the claims of the PRD, but they are just the PRD that make these claims. Not the international observers, and not the PRD volunteers who worked at the voting booths and certified the election results at each voting booth.
Let me turn your question around on you though: Are you one of the brainwashed ones?
You ask me if I am brainwashed or part of the Mexican elite... are those the only two choices you will give me? Can I simply be an independent thinker who doesn't buy the 2-bit PRD conspiracy theory?
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by SleepyguyEven if it is a 1 for 1 increase in legal immigration for decrease in illegal immigration? Supposing that was the option on the table versus the status quo, could you live with that?
Don't be silly. What I mean by a closed border is one that is closed to illegal immigration, not the legal kind. What I want is a return to lawful behavior by people on both sides of the border. That can't be achieved until the US actually gains control of who and what crosses that border in both directions.
...assuming there is no cultural undertone in your position...
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by eljefejesusThis post just demosntrates my point: it's the same to read your posts and to read the speeches of the antisemite leader of the ultra-catholic, right wing ruling party (PAN).
Suppose you believe the PRD faithful who belief that they were entitled to win because they don't think that their charismatic hero Andre Manuel Lopez Obrador had quite dropped in the polls enough by the time of the election, regardless of all the facts that he did...
still I repeat, how are you a political refugee?
and how do your party-line biases ou ...[text shortened]... Can I simply be an independent thinker who doesn't buy the 2-bit PRD conspiracy theory?
Hey, who knows, maybe you are that closet gay leader of the PAN, Germán Martínez.
Keep reading El Financiero. I'll keep reading La Jornada.
And regarding the fraud, if you read Spanish (which I am sure you do), read the resolution of the Electoral Tribunal.
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by SeitseYou name-calling, argument-avoiding coward. Stand up and face to reality, man, the Tribunal found irregularities on both sides. Elections are not completely without an iota of controversy, but they were resolved through the rules of the game in the IFE and Calderon won fair and square. Of course AMLO wanted to change the rules of the game, AMLO IS A PROFESSIONAL PROTESTOR who portested his prior losses and strangely didn't protest the electoral tribunal when he won the Mayoralship of Mexico City.
This post just demosntrates my point: it's the same to read your posts and to read the speeches of the antisemite leader of the ultra-catholic, right wing ruling party (PAN).
Hey, who knows, maybe you are that closet gay leader of the PAN, Germán Martínez.
Keep reading El Financiero. I'll keep reading La Jornada.
And regarding the fraud, if you read Spanish (which I am sure you do), read the resolution of the Electoral Tribunal.
Why do you listen to what the PRD same-sex marriage party (not that there's anything wrong with that, but to counter your name calling) tells you to think?
Hey who knows, maybe you are the closet gay leader of a bunch of idealistic latin-american studies students who believe conspiracies eagerly to fill in the gaps of the stuff they haven't studied or learned.
As for reading financial news at a high-level of understanding versus opinion pieces written for people with a 6th grade education and susceptible to sensationalist stories for readership and advertizing revenue, I think I WILL stick to such reading as El Economista and Financial Times.
If you want to stick you head in the sand... I mean stick with La Jornada... to each his own.
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by eljefejesusKeep copy pasting the memorandums of the ruling party, although it's good to have a mind of your own.
You name-calling, argument-avoiding coward. Stand up and face to reality, man, the Tribunal found irregularities on both sides. Elections are not completely without an iota of controversy, but they were resolved through the rules of the game in the IFE and Calderon won fair and square. Of course AMLO wanted to change the rules of the game, AMLO IS A P ...[text shortened]... If you want to stick you head in the sand... I mean stick with La Jornada... to each his own.
The idiot of Vicente Fox promoted his party's candidate against the rules of the game, and the ruling party orchestrated a campaign of fear and hatred against the socialdemocrats, with the help from the business community,the TV owners and the Catholic church. This is a fact recognized by the electoral tribunal. The fact that they didn't do anything based in a stupid legality doesn't take away the fact that there was not a level playing field. This is fact, and NOBODY can deny it.
Now, obviously you are one of the Mexican "elite" who benefits from the oppression of millions of Mexicans, most likely living in a safe compund with security guards and nice shopping malls, away from the country's reality. Either that or you are a slave of the powerful ones, sitting in a cubicle working your rear off to make millions for some corrupt businessman. It's understandable then that you are trying to protect your masters, a.k.a. your owners.
You are the one with your head in the sand. Face it.
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by SeitseYou cite the "facts recognized by the electoral tribunal" to support your point that the electoral tribunal's final determination was wrong?
Keep copy pasting the memorandums of the ruling party, although it's good to have a mind of your own.
The idiot of Vicente Fox promoted his party's candidate against the rules of the game, and the ruling party orchestrated a campaign of fear and hatred against the socialdemocrats, with the help from the business community,the TV owners and the Catholic chu ...[text shortened]... our masters, a.k.a. your owners.
You are the one with your head in the sand. Face it.
Don't you realize that you're contradicting yourself?
You think AMLO and his people were perfect in the way they ran their campaign? Come on, you know better than that, you saw (I assume) how AMLO played up to his populist image and promised everything to everyone, tried to frame the whole election as a class struggle with the solution being to elect him into the nation's most powerful office. What a self-promoting, populist, self-interested, political puke.
By the way, if the Mexican "elite" benefit from oppressing millions of Mexicans, than how come the last 15 years have seen both a reduction in Mexican poverty, an increase in Mexico's middle-class, an increase in Mexican living-standards across the board, rising productivity and wealth, rising home-ownership rates, lowering interest rates, rising percentage of population with a car, rising telephone and cell-phone and internet use, increased access to good and services from the world...
Is everyone who refuses to listen to AMLO's selfish and increasingly lonely march against his 2006 electoral loss (the PRD having chosen not to follow his lead anymore), somehow limited in what they can be? Only this bad thing or else that bad thing, you say. What are you? Safe from working for a boss or safe from making money because you choose to teach at a local community college? Hey man, you have the freedom to do that, whatever works for you. However, leave that majority who disagrees with AMLO alone to belief as their independent minds allow them to belief.
The problem with your believes is that you start with your loyalties to AMLO and then try to defend them, rather than starting with objectivity and then deciding if you think the benefit of the objective evidence from independent and verifiable sources points to a massive and conspiratorial electoral fraud or to a closely fought election which AMLO protested as usual.
21 Apr 09
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Originally posted by eljefejesus"Populist", typical word of the ignorants and the ruling party during the hatred campaign. Unless you stop copy pasting the official version of the things, there's no value in your posts and, of course, I am wasting my time.
You cite the "facts recognized by the electoral tribunal" to support your point that the electoral tribunal's final determination was wrong?
Don't you realize that you're contradicting yourself?
You think AMLO and his people were perfect in the way they ran their campaign? Come on, you know better than that, you saw (I assume) how AMLO played up t atorial electoral fraud or to a closely fought election which AMLO protested as usual.
As for the electoral tribunal, they recognized there was no level playing field through active proselitism from the president in favor of its candidate, though they
Now, if Mexico is such a gorgeous country, why don't you go there and rejoice in the paradise it is? What are you doing outside?! I see you are in the U.S. (or at least you claim to be), so perhaps you are in a long spree of shopping with public resources, or you are one of the privileged sons of some politician or corrupt businessman studying some phony degree at an American university.
We are not equal, kiddo. I come from a poor background and I struggled to survive as an honest man in a corrupt country. Nothing that I have eaten or enjoyed was stolen or obtained through influences, and the censorship and persecution because of my ideas forced me, like 500,000 thousand other Mexicans, to apply my studies and experience somewhere else ( this is official data published by the Ministry of Education re: the number of Mexicans with graduate studies who decided to go to the U.S. or Europe in the search for a better life... which we simply cannot get in Mexico ).
And, last note: world is not black and white. Just because I am critical of the cesspool Mexico is, you assume that I am a fan of López Obrador or a member of the left party (PRD). I am none. Your assumption shows your "with us or against us" view of the world.
Edit. More on the fraud, for our fellow posters here in debates... Europeans will appreciate it, of course, even if you will keep denying the fact that the election was rigged...
http://www.alternet.org/story/39763
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=5949&fuseaction=topics.item&news_id=143858
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jul/17/themexicanstandoff
The election was stolen, and that is a fact
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by Seitseyour sources are opinion pieces by such writers as these:
"Populist", typical word of the ignorants and the ruling party during the hatred campaign. Unless you stop copy pasting the official version of the things, there's no value in your posts and, of course, I am wasting my time.
As for the electoral tribunal, they recognized there was no level playing field through active proselitism from the president in favo ...[text shortened]... sfree/2006/jul/17/themexicanstandoff
[b]The election was stolen, and that is a fact[/b]
"Chuck Collins is the co-author of "Economic Apartheid in America: A Primer on Economic Inequality and Insecurity" (New Press). He is a senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and lives in Oaxaca, México. Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer."
What evidence did they ever turn up as some of your sources said that they hoped to find based on their suspicions?
All you keep repeating is that the true statements I make are somehow not valid because your most hated party has also used the truth against AMLO.
Now if Mexico is such a cesstpool, why do you care who runs it? Are you saying I cannot point out the good in Mexico because I did not support AMLO's conspiracy-theory whining and cry-babying?
Why do you make up a false biography for me, why even go through such fanciful speculations?
Indeed we are not equal, kiddo. My family comes not from the elite, nor do I. However, I have studied comparative elites as well as economics and government at a good school through my hard work and dare I say intelligence, and I do not have a childish view of the people who climbed to the top nor do I have a naive view about the disproportionate influence of the richest families in Mexico. This is not a phenomenon unique to Mexico though, as money can be and is spent or misspent on influence by many people in many countries. Maybe people who actually care about Mexico like you and like me should make money and use it for the good of Mexico and our adopted countries... but that would not be easy and I doubt it would fit with your restricted world view or your ideologies.
And don't forget, you have spent this entire debate defending the Lopez Obrador version of events... should anyone have to guess of whom you were in favor?
Your weak, old, and inconclusive sources are just more unproven accusations.
You know, Mexico DOES share a long border with one of the riches countries in the world... so even while it is one of the richest countries in Latin America by most standards, of course there is emmigration. There are hundreds of years of history and family crossings since Spain controlled much of this land. That will not change overnight. Nor will the difference in wealth between the US and Mexico. However, in Mexico, progress is being made by the party you hate and would love to discredit.
You don't have to like it.
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by Sam The ShamIt's hard to get a decent job in Mexico, due to a lack of government regulations such as minimum wage laws. Consequently, there's a perverse incentive to flee to the US.
11% of people born in Mexico have now run to the United States. What's up with that? Something wrong in mexico?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/17/mexicans-32-percent-of-all-immigrants-in-us/
21 Apr 09
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Originally posted by eljefejesusAnd, of course, having some opinions similar to those portrayed by López Obrador make me one of "them" for you, isn't it?
your sources are opinion pieces by such writers as these:
"Chuck Collins is the co-author of "Economic Apartheid in America: A Primer on Economic Inequality and Insecurity" (New Press). He is a senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and lives in Oaxaca, México. Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer."
What evidence did they ever t ing made by the party you hate and would love to discredit.
You don't have to like it.
That's the typical manichean view of the world portrayed by the ruling elite of Mexico, the one that profits from maintaining the status quo. Those ones who make money out of the misery of millions.
Mexico survives thanks to 3 things:
(a) money milked from PEMEX in order to pay the privileges of the corrupt unions and the salaries of the bureaucrats,
(b) money sent back home by us, the emigrants, and
(c) drug trafficking.
The fragile social peace of Mexico rests on those three pilars. Without those resources, the country would be like Bangladesh or Somalia, with all due respect for those countries.
Or what, are you going to tell me that the shootings on open streets between the soldiers and the drug gangs are a symptom of a healthy country, where a decent living can be made out of a normal, decent job?!?!
Mexico is in the road to become soon a failed state. And to sense it is as simple as going into the Failed State Index made by the Fund for Peace. Almost all variables are met or close to be met by Mexico!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state
A final note: the problem with people like you, who defend the status quo and don't want to see the horrible 4th world Mexico is becoming, don't have the singlest idea of the spirit laid down by Mario Vargas Llosa in his speech "Literature is Fire", when he received the Rómulo Gallegos.
http://sologak1.blogspot.com/2009/02/la-literatura-es-fuegoliterature-is.html
(English + Spanish)
Literature says nothing to those human beings who are satisfied with their lot, who are content with life as they now live it. Literature is the food of the rebellious spirit, the promulgator of non-conformities, the refuge for those who have too much or too little in life.
The more a writer attacks his own country, the more he loves it; but also the more he is hated by the keepers of the status quo. There are many of us who have been pressured or persecuted by voicing our opinions, and the Mexican media has responded to the interests of those "satisfied with their lot" by closing spaces.
Just like the dictatorships of "the past". There's no past. The country is still under an iron fist ruling by the exploiters.
21 Apr 09
Originally posted by eljefejesusAh, is this the test to see if I'm a racist? Is that what you mean by "cultural undertone"? This is of course the standard, automatically cast aspersion whenever an American insists the US has a right and responsibility to control its borders and immigration policy. You waited a little longer than Seitse usually does, but you did not disappoint.
Even if it is a 1 for 1 increase in legal immigration for decrease in illegal immigration? Supposing that was the option on the table versus the status quo, could you live with that?
...assuming there is no cultural undertone in your position...
But to answer your question, no. The rate of immigration to the US is already on track to swamp our boat. Americans know this and want overall immigration reduced and the rule of law restored. Cry racism if you can't help yourself, but the objection shared by most Americans to current levels of immigration has nothing to do with who the immigrants are, but rather with their overall numbers.
This guy says it better if you have a few minutes...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
I'm enjoying the back and forth between you and Seitse BTW, very interesting to read your points of view.
22 Apr 09
Originally posted by SeitseYou may not care about the poor in Mexico, reducing poverty, and increasing economic opportunities and the living standards of Mexico, but I do, and I did the studying to discuss the science behind it intelligently... although reading and writing creative fiction stories is nice too (good job on that last one).
And, of course, having some opinions similar to those portrayed by López Obrador make me one of "them" for you, isn't it?
That's the typical manichean view of the world portrayed by the ruling elite of Mexico, the one that profits from maintaining the status quo. Those ones who make money out of the misery of millions.
Mexico [b]survives thanks to ...[text shortened]... There's no past. The country is still under an iron fist ruling by the exploiters.[/b]
The "status quo" in Mexico is the 2nd PAN president in Mexico's history which replaced 70 years of PRI-party rule. This PAN president is more practical than Vicente Fox and has passed tough-to-pass reforms to make the Mexican economy more competitive. He is unwinding the corruption that allowed the drug cartels to grow and prosper in peace under the PRI. He is using the same strategy that your dear hero AMLO also favored: using the army to attack the drug cartels. NOW you're against AMLO's policies? Not when AMLO was proposing it, only now that it is being put into action by Calderon? Wow, that is illogical and emotional... where did you leave your logical abilities?
So conspiracies are supposed to make up for your ignorance and illogic?
As for your attacks on Mexico, you left out
Agriculture:
Product Quantity (Tm) World Rank1
Avocados 1,040,390 1
Onions and chayote 1,130,660 1
Limes and lemons 1,824,890 1
Sunflower seed 212,765 1
Dry fruits 95,150 2
Papaya 955,694 2
Chillies and peppers 1,853,610 2
Whole beans 93 000 3
Oranges 3,969,810 3
Anise, badian, fennel 32 500 3
Chicken meat 2,245,000 3
Asparagus 67,247 4
Mangoes 1.503.010 4
Corn 20,000,000 4
But you know what they say, they can lead a whore to culture, but they can't make you think.
Industry :
"The automobile sector in Mexico differs from that in other Latin American countries and developing nations in that it does not function as a mere assembly manufacturer. The industry produces technologically complex components and engages in some research and development activities.[14] "
In 2005, according to the World Bank, high-tech industrial production represented 19.6% of total exports.[45]
Financial/Services:
Commercial banks, brokerage and securities houses, insurance companies, retirement-fund administrators, mutual funds, leasing companies, savings and loans, credit unions, government development banks, “non-bank banks”, bonded warehouses, bonding companies and foreign-exchange firms
Minerals:
Major silver producer
Trade (some non-merchandise goods fall within other categories):
Mexico is the biggest exporter and importer in Latin America; in 2005, Mexico alone exported US $213.7 billion, roughly equivalent to the sum of the exports of Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, and Paraguay.
Exports $271.9 billion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
Export goods manufactured goods, oil and oil products, silver, fruits, vegetables, coffee, cotton
and Tourism:
Mexico is the eighth most visited country in the world (with over 20 million tourists a year)
But then, to you that is all the same thing as a "cesspool."
If you still can't tell the difference between Mexico without oil and Bangledesh or Mexico without oil and Somalia, then perhaps you should at least take the time to compare the typical incomes in each country.
Now not that I don't believe your political refugee story, but did the PAN physically remove your illogical ranting conspiracy theory behind out of the country, or did you leave by choice to a country that had many more decades of economically sound policies?
Is any non-AMLO-government a signal for you to see only cestpools in Mexico?