14 Sep 23
@wajoma saidIf a group robs a bank and members of that group made texts the night before about a "plan" they had which included entering the bank, would you insist there was "no evidence" their plan was to rob the bank?
The appears to be evidence of a plan, but not the details of the plan. It's ambiguous but the statement you posted previously indicates more than one plan. If you don't know the details of either plan how do you know which one was being followed?
Probably you would but few reasonable people would agree with you.
14 Sep 23
How's this for evidence:
As BIGGS unlawfully advanced toward the Capitol he recorded himself stating,
"Dude, we're right in front of the Capitol right now. American citizens are storming the Capitol taking it back right now. There's millions of people out here; this is ***** crazy. Oh my God! This is such history! This is insane. We've gone through every barricade thus far. F*** you!"
Paragraph 79 of the Indictment
14 Sep 23
@no1marauder saidWithout evidence of what the plan was, no. They could have robbed the bank without a plan, on the spur of the moment. Unless there's evidence the plan was specifically to rob the bank and the details of that robbery you got nothing. It's analogy fail anyway because they'd go to jail for the robbery not the plan. These guys are been charged with conspiracy with no evidence of what the details of the plan were, it's all resting on the arrangement of four letters 'P', 'L', 'A', 'N'. They had a plan, so what. If that's all it takes we're all in big trouble, no one is safe when the state wields that power.
If a group robs a bank and members of that group made texts the night before about a "plan" they had which included entering the bank, would you insist there was "no evidence" their plan was to rob the bank?
Probably you would but few reasonable people would agree with you.
14 Sep 23
@no1marauder saidNot seeing 'the plan'. Just commenting on the situation in a heightened adrenalin state, which I'm sure everyone was in.
How's this for evidence:
As BIGGS unlawfully advanced toward the Capitol he recorded himself stating,
"Dude, we're right in front of the Capitol right now. American citizens are storming the Capitol taking it back right now. There's millions of people out here; this is ***** crazy. Oh my God! This is such history! This is insane. We've gone through every barricade thus far. F*** you!"
Paragraph 79 of the Indictment
14 Sep 23
@wajoma saidI don't think you know US law very well.
Without evidence of what the plan was, no. They could have robbed the bank without a plan, on the spur of the moment. Unless there's evidence the plan was specifically to rob the bank and the details of that robbery you got nothing. It's analogy fail anyway because they'd go to jail for the robbery not the plan. These guys are been charged with conspiracy with no evi ...[text shortened]... t. If that's all it takes we're all in big trouble, no one is safe when the state wields that power.
14 Sep 23
@no1marauder saidNo evidence of a plan, or the details of the plan.
Or this:
at 1:27 p.m., BIGGS filmed a selfie-style video with NORDEAN and others who had marched with them to the Capitol in which BIGGS declared, "So we just stormed the f****** Capitol. Took the motherf****** place back. That was so much fun."
Paragraph 89 of the Indictment
@wajoma saidSorry, but the laws of conspiracy do not require that the only acceptable evidence of the plan of the conspiracy must be written down, signed by all the conspirators, notarized and in triplicate.
Without evidence of what the plan was, no. They could have robbed the bank without a plan, on the spur of the moment. Unless there's evidence the plan was specifically to rob the bank and the details of that robbery you got nothing. It's analogy fail anyway because they'd go to jail for the robbery not the plan. These guys are been charged with conspiracy with no evi ...[text shortened]... t. If that's all it takes we're all in big trouble, no one is safe when the state wields that power.
All that is required is a tacit agreement among the conspirators to commit a crime. Exact details are not required.
Criminal conspiracy is a separate crime from the criminal object of the conspiracy; one could be charged with conspiracy to rob a bank even if the bank was never robbed (all that is required would be an agreement to do so and one overt act by any one of the conspirators).
@wajoma said"Storming the Capitol" was part of the plan; Tarrio stated as much in one of his texts:
No evidence of a plan, or the details of the plan.
"The indictment says discussions among a small group of Proud Boy leaders shifted in the days before the riot to focus on the Capitol itself. “On January 3, as efforts to plan for January 6 intensified,” the document says, “Tarrio stated ... that he wanted to wait until January 4 to make final plans.”
That prompted a person, who was not identified in court documents, to send the group this voice message: “The main operating theater should be out in front of house of representatives ... based around the front entrance to the Capitol building.”
Tarrio responded, “I didn’t hear this voice note until now, you want to storm the Capitol,” the indictment says."
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boys-leader-arrested-capitol-riot-conspiracy-rcna19164
@no1marauder saidAfter a few hundred posts the best you can come up with is 'you want to storm the Capitol' that's it, from one person, that's your evidence of a plan, 'Storm the capitol' can mean a thousand different things to 10 000 different people. It definitely doesn't mean all the stuff you were making up before. And this on the day?
"Storming the Capitol" was part of the plan; Tarrio stated as much in one of his texts:
"The indictment says discussions among a small group of Proud Boy leaders shifted in the days before the riot to focus on the Capitol itself. “On January 3, as efforts to plan for January 6 intensified,” the document says, “Tarrio stated ... that he wanted to wait until January 4 to ...[text shortened]... nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/proud-boys-leader-arrested-capitol-riot-conspiracy-rcna19164
Oh, and some people said the word 'plan'.
@athousandyoung saidIt incentivizes lying, when people are offered reduced sentences and special treatment in return for information, those that have low morals i.e. criminals, don't have any reservations fabricating information. That Biggs, Tarrio etc have received such harsh sentences we can be sure they passed the honesty and integrity test and did not fabricate information.
I don't think you know US law very well.
What would your price be? A year? 2 years?
@wajoma saidSnitches end up in ditches. Not worth it.
It incentivizes lying, when people are offered reduced sentences and special treatment in return for information, those that have low morals i.e. criminals, don't have any reservations fabricating information. That Biggs, Tarrio etc have received such harsh sentences we can be sure they passed the honesty and integrity test and did not fabricate information.
What would your price be? A year? 2 years?
You persist in implying that Biggs and Tarrio are being treated differently than other criminals. The outrageously harsh prison system with people being put in isolation for unreasonable amounts of time for unjustifiable reasons, the draconian sentences and inhumane living conditions are applied to people across the board. You should keep that in mind. Your favorite criminals are not being treated with unusual levels of harshness. Unreasonable levels of harshness maybe but not unusual. There are good reasons some people want to defund the police for example. It’s because the cops are unreasonably harsh.
Biggs and Tarrio are criminals so if criminals have low morals then Biggs and Tarrio have low morals.
The idea that long sentences imply integrity is ridiculous.
14 Sep 23
@athousandyoung saidYou know, it's kind of touching that wajoma has suddenly taken an interest in the flaws riddling the US criminal justice system. All it took was the travails of some white blokes with a fascist bent to stir a tiny eddy of empathy in his otherwise shriveled cowboy capitalist heart. *sniff*
Snitches end up in ditches. Not worth it.
You persist in implying that Biggs and Tarrio are being treated differently than other criminals. The outrageously harsh prison system with people being put in isolation for unreasonable amounts of time for unjustifiable reasons, the draconian sentences and inhumane living conditions are applied to people across the boar ...[text shortened]... hen Biggs and Tarrio have low morals.
The idea that long sentences imply integrity is ridiculous.
Anyway, the sentences fit the crimes in this case. This isn't like the black woman in Texas who got a five-year prison sentence for casting a vote in the 2016 election based on a misunderstanding of the terms of her supervised release after serving time for tax fraud. Where oh where was wajoma then...?
@soothfast saidTarrio is not white so wondering why you'd attempt the race card.
You know, it's kind of touching that wajoma has suddenly taken an interest in the flaws riddling the US criminal justice system. All it took was the travails of some white blokes with a fascist bent to stir a tiny eddy of empathy in his otherwise shriveled cowboy capitalist heart. *sniff*
Anyway, the sentences fit the crimes in this case. This isn't like the black wom ...[text shortened]... erms of her supervised release after serving time for tax fraud. Where oh where was wajoma then...?
BTW ATY tries this all the time, you can't discuss a specific case unless you consider some other case and that list becomes endless. It's just diversion, you've got time to waste on diversions, that's nice for you. I don't, that's also nice.