Judge Jackson: Can't define the term 'woman'

@vivify said
Testosterone is only one aspect. Lia Thomas is also 6'1. The average height for women is 5'4. A quick glance at photos show Lia Towers over her female competitors. Height is an important advantage for swimmers:

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/what-makes-the-perfect-swimmers-body/

I'm fairly sure a day will come when trans women can be more closely matched ...[text shortened]... letting children that young decide on such a life-altering event is currently a controversial issue.

There's no rule that women swimmers can't be tall. Katie Ledecky, who has won 7 Olympic Gold medals and 15 World Championship Golds, is 6 foot tall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Ledecky

Missy Franklin, who has won 5 Olympic golds, is 6'2". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missy_Franklin

@no1marauder said
There's no rule that women swimmers can't be tall. Katie Ledecky, who has won 7 Olympic Gold medals and 15 World Championship Golds, is 6 foot tall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Ledecky

Missy Franklin, who has won 5 Olympic golds, is 6'2". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missy_Franklin

The downside to being reputed as one the most intelligent debaters is that you can't pretend not understand a point.

Transwomen have advantages not available to most women, including top tier athletes.

Again: I do believe a day will come when transwomen can be more closely matched to cisgenders and it will be fine for trans women to compete.

But, it could also be pointed out that the fact of trans acceptance is more important right now than the particulars of trans vs cisgender women. Maybe the fact that they're accepted at all is what should be celebrated here, and the trans/sports argument is a distraction from progressing as a more tolerant society.

@mott-the-hoople said
never in our culture have we called men women

Again... semantics. We've been over this. The Greek term for "indeterminate gender" is in the Bible. The only difference is terminology.

@vivify said
The downside to being reputed as one the most intelligent debaters is that you can't pretend not understand a point.

Transwomen have advantages not available to most women, including top tier athletes.

Again: I do believe a day will come when transwomen can be more closely matched to cisgenders and it will be fine for trans women to compete.

But, it could also be ...[text shortened]... ed here, and the trans/sports argument is a distraction from progressing as a more tolerant society.

I understood your "point" and refuted it. Women swimmers, men swimmers and successful athletes in general are usually taller than average. You raising Lia Thomas' height v. the average women's was somewhat absurd.

I don't believe individuals should be sacrificed to the "greater good" of possible later social acceptance based on present bigotry. I don't believe laws should directly discriminate against members of a minority just because it is presently popular.

@vivify said
The downside to being reputed as one the most intelligent debaters is that you can't pretend not understand a point.

Transwomen have advantages not available to most women, including top tier athletes.

Again: I do believe a day will come when transwomen can be more closely matched to cisgenders and it will be fine for trans women to compete.

But, it could also be ...[text shortened]... ed here, and the trans/sports argument is a distraction from progressing as a more tolerant society.

Very good post. Marauder, bless him, is caught up in the many liberal movements which are now being seen to overshadow common sense. In his quest, he literally and physically equates the people who want to be women with people who are women. It is not possible, but he selling it here on the Forum.
He is so overwrought that his writing about it is indiscernible...witness his post above that I swore I didn’t understand. And this Cis stuff, he wants Cis to be a primary factor in future human world decisions. And again, he wants our society to break down into a REAL common denominator. Everyone the same. Apply all the requisite adages to achieve that (his) goal.
Me thinks he is immersed in all of the wrong links. Pity.

@averagejoe1 said
Very good post. Marauder, bless him, is caught up in the many liberal movements which are now being seen to overshadow common sense. In his quest, he literally and physically equates the people who want to be women with people who are women. It is not possible, but he selling it here on the Forum.
He is so overwrought that his writing about it is indiscernible...w ...[text shortened]... e adages to achieve that (his) goal.
Me thinks he is immersed in all of the wrong links. Pity.

Joe, you're an idiot.

End of story.

@averagejoe1 said
Very good post. Marauder, bless him, is caught up in the many liberal movements which are now being seen to overshadow common sense. In his quest, he literally and physically equates the people who want to be women with people who are women. It is not possible, but he selling it here on the Forum.
He is so overwrought that his writing about it is indiscernible...w ...[text shortened]... e adages to achieve that (his) goal.
Me thinks he is immersed in all of the wrong links. Pity.

AJ: And this Cis stuff, he wants Cis to be a primary factor in future human world decisions.

No actually that's what you want, but you're too stupid to even know what "cisgender" means.

Try googling.

@vivify said
The downside to being reputed as one the most intelligent debaters is that you can't pretend not understand a point.

Transwomen have advantages not available to most women, including top tier athletes.

Again: I do believe a day will come when transwomen can be more closely matched to cisgenders and it will be fine for trans women to compete.

But, it could also be ...[text shortened]... ed here, and the trans/sports argument is a distraction from progressing as a more tolerant society.

The data says Thomas has no clear advantage and that her treatments have resulted in lesser performance:

"Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100.[4] On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019.[4][3][7] During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.[8]

She began transitioning using hormone replacement therapy in May 2019, and came out as a trans woman during her junior year to her coaches, friends, and the women's and men's swim teams at the University of Pennsylvania.[2][4] She was required to swim for the men's team in the 2019–2020 academic year as a junior while undergoing hormone therapy and then swam on the women's team in 2021–2022 after taking a year off school to maintain her eligibility to compete while competitive swimming was canceled due to the COVID-19 pandemic.[3][4][9] Thomas has followed all of the gender-related policies to be eligible to compete as a woman in NCAA swimming.[10][11]

Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Her time for the 500 freestyle is over 15 seconds slower than her personal bests before medically transitioning.[12][13] Thomas's event progression peaked in 2019 for distance swimming, with a drop in times during the 2021–22 season. Her event progression for sprint swimming reflected a dip at the start of 2021–22 season before returning to near-lifetime bests in the 100 free and a lifetime personal best in the 50 free in 2021.[14]

In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.[15][16]

In a race during January 2022 at a meet against UPenn's Ivy league rival Yale, Thomas finished in 6th place in the 100m freestyle race, losing to four cisgender women and Iszac Henig, a transgender man (transitioning without hormone therapy).[17][18]

In March 2022, Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle with a time of 4:33.24; Olympic silver medalist Emma Weyant was second with a time 1.75 seconds behind Thomas.[19][20][21] Thomas was 9.18 seconds short of Katie Ledecky’s NCAA record of 4:24.06.[22] In the preliminaries for the 200 freestyle, Thomas finished second. In the final for the 200 freestyle, Thomas placed fifth. In the preliminaries for the 100 freestyle, Thomas finished tenth. In the finals for the 100 freestyle, Thomas placed eighth out of eight competitors, finishing last.[23]

The March 2022 NCAA championship was Thomas's last college swimming event.[24] According to Sports Illustrated, she has applied for law school and plans to swim at the 2024 Summer Olympics trials.[2]

According to the collage swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas is ranked 36th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021-2022 season.[25]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas

@no1marauder said
I understood your "point" and refuted it. Women swimmers, men swimmers and successful athletes in general are usually taller than average. You raising Lia Thomas' height v. the average women's was somewhat absurd.

I don't believe individuals should be sacrificed to the "greater good" of possible later social acceptance based on present bigotry. I don't believe laws should directly discriminate against members of a minority just because it is presently popular.

mRauder, I wouldn't be throwing that 'greater good' phrase around, you are already scaring us enough.
Secondly, you fellers can point out height, size, weight, sexual Cis preference, whatever, all you want. IN the end, the competitors in a sport which, today, is limited to women, would, by rationale, common sense and logic, be eliminated from the competition who is not a woman, and was not a woman. If 'she/it' were a woman, they would not refer to this person as a trans-anything.
If we have a race of our pet turtles, my brother wants to put a shell on his rabbit and enter the rabbit in the race! Jesus.

@averagejoe1 said
mRauder, I wouldn't be throwing that 'greater good' phrase around, you are already scaring us enough.
Secondly, you fellers can point out height, size, weight, sexual Cis preference, whatever, all you want. IN the end, the competitors in a sport which, today, is limited to women, would, by rationale, common sense and logic, be eliminated from the competition who ...[text shortened]... pet turtles, my brother wants to put a shell on his rabbit and enter the rabbit in the race! Jesus.

Joe, you're an idiot.

"Thomas has followed all of the gender-related policies to be eligible to compete as a woman in NCAA swimming." From the Wiki article already cited

"For her part, Thomas has reportedly followed every rule put in front of her to be eligible to compete since moving forward with her transition in May 2019."

https://www.outsports.com/2022/2/16/22926059/lia-thomas-ivy-league-penn-swimming-championships-transphobia-equity-fairness

@no1marauder said
AJ: And this Cis stuff, he wants Cis to be a primary factor in future human world decisions.

No actually that's what you want, but you're too stupid to even know what "cisgender" means.

Try googling.

I predict that I will never google nor learn the manning of Cis. I don't care. I am sort of a man and woman guy,.... the surgically-impaired are just that, and not my cup of tea. Next you will write about a circus freak, (sorry to use that word, but it is my point, give me hell for use of the word.) ...and tell me to read up on the bearded lady or the sword swallower .
HELP!!!!
And for the record, I can weigh-in quite quite knowledgeable on this subject without knowing the underbelly. Won't bore you with an analogy. Did you like my rabbit analogy?

@vivify said
The downside to being reputed as one the most intelligent debaters is that you can't pretend not understand a point.

Transwomen have advantages not available to most women, including top tier athletes.

Again: I do believe a day will come when transwomen can be more closely matched to cisgenders and it will be fine for trans women to compete.

But, it could also be ...[text shortened]... ed here, and the trans/sports argument is a distraction from progressing as a more tolerant society.

The International Olympic Committee, which might be a bit more knowledgeable about such matters than sh, mott, aj and yourself has established that there is "no presumption of advantage" for transgender women in any sport (https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.116948229.2094909257.1637082260-499116176.1634933505 paragraph 5) and that any restrictions on eligibility be based on robust, peer reviewed evidence that demonstrates a consistent, unfair competitive advantage in the specific sport regulated (paragraph 6).

@no1marauder said
I understood your "point" and refuted it. Women swimmers, men swimmers and successful athletes in general are usually taller than average. You raising Lia Thomas' height v. the average women's was somewhat absurd.

I don't believe individuals should be sacrificed to the "greater good" of possible later social acceptance based on present bigotry. I don't believe laws should directly discriminate against members of a minority just because it is presently popular.

Thomas' physical advantage directly comes from the fact she was born a man. Thomas wasn't a woman who had natural advantages over other women, but competed as a man against other top-level male athletes.

Pretending you don't know this is absurd.

@no1marauder said
The International Olympic Committee, which might be a bit more knowledgeable about such matters than sh, mott, aj and yourself has established that there is "no presumption of advantage" for transgender women in any sport (https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.116948229.2094909257.1637 ...[text shortened]... monstrates a consistent, unfair competitive advantage in the specific sport regulated (paragraph 6).

Are Maruauder's posts wearing us all out? Is this a lecture? A closing argument ?

Your first line,,,,,,.the committee is more knowledgeable than SH, Mott and Me? Do they know our wonderful daughters? Do they make breakfast for them on Saturday, their bubbly faces glowing, to join up with the other girls at 10:00 AM for the event?
The Nazi committee admits a gorilla into their competition, who is not a girl by birth? And they committee has gotten all of your input as you have googled and linked all week, which confirms that it is OK to have the gorilla by my little girl, who is still digesting her Cheerios, hoping to maybe win?? Stomach in knots? Then a bigger knot, when the gorilla fills the poolside door?
Do you not have children, can you not relate. Are you one of the gorillas, what is the deal? Why are you writing this shyte?
Full disclosure,, I only read first line of this post of yours, the rest stays on the back un-lit burner, with the def of Ciiiiiiiiiiiisssss.

@no1marauder said
The International Olympic Committee, which might be a bit more knowledgeable about such matters than sh, mott, aj and yourself has established that there is "no presumption of advantage" for transgender women in any sport (https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.116948229.2094909257.1637 ...[text shortened]... monstrates a consistent, unfair competitive advantage in the specific sport regulated (paragraph 6).

This merely says that we shouldn't prejudge transwomen as having advantages; it doesn't say they don't have advantages.

Carefully read your sources before posting them.