10 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by Northern Ladfunny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
Actually the opposite. Certainly at higher levels, if you know your opponent is a Traxler player and you have time to prepare, most players will be more likely to play Italian (3.Bc4), even if it isn't their normal opening. And why? Because objectively it's just good for white, and no amount of bluster or wishful thinking on the part of Traxler aficiona least black doesn't get anything like adequate compensation for the pawn), so there you are!
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 d6
8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Nc3 Qg6 10. Nh4 Qg4
White to move.
It seems that white is better but black can probably draw with perfect play.
Edit - I personally play 9. ... Ng4!? and fritz gives black perfect equality after Nd5+, Kd7, 0-0, Qh5.
Conclusion.. Nxf7 probably loses and definitely draws... no one with modern analysis will argue this anymore.
Bxf7+ leads to equality... it is good for white but the game does equalize.. and black gets the tempo... good enough for me.
10 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensThis is the mistake when analysing with computers!
funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...
Bxf7+ is much better for white than Nxf7 with which black gets superb (& often decisive) attacking chances for the losing R for N. Often black's attack is so strong he can simply forget about the white Nh8.
Fritz may well go mad for Nxf7 for white but ask any Traxler expert playing black if they'd rather 5.Bxf7+ or 5.Nxf7 & I bet they'll always prefer the 5.Nxf7...Bxf2+ continuation.
10 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ih8sensMy line is better for white.
funny enough fritz gives black complete (or just about) equality for the pawn less than 10 moves into the game with Bxf7+ ...
I just found that out... let me look up the line.. i have it written down somewhere...
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3 Rf8 7. d3 d6
8. Nf3 Qe8 9. Nc3 Qg6 10. Nh4 Qg4 [fen]r1b2r2 ...[text shortened]... t is good for white but the game does equalize.. and black gets the tempo... good enough for me.
😉
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3
10 Dec 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchNo It's not!!
My line is better for white.
😉
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3
7. ... Bxf2+! and black has AT LEAST equalized as well as kept the tempo with greater king safety.
8. Kxf2, Nxe4+
9. Kg1, Nxg5
... cmon squelchbelch you know better than that 😛.
10 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ih8sens1.e4...e5
No It's not!!
7. ... Bxf2+! and black has AT LEAST equalized as well as kept the tempo with greater king safety.
8. Kxf2, Nxe4+
9. Kg1, Nxg5
... cmon squelchbelch you know better than that 😛.
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4
what's next?
black to move
(1 white win & 1 draw from here on my database)
10 Dec 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchDo you know anything about elementary statistics? The Central Limit Theorem? Anything? Sample sizes? Anything?
1.e4...e5
2.Nf3...Nc6
3.Bc4...Nf6
4.Ng5...Bc5
5.Bxf7+...Ke7
6.Bc4...Rf8
7.Nc3...Bxf2+
8.Kxf2...Nxe4+
9.Kg1...Nxg5
10.d4
what's next?
black to move
[fen]r1bq1r2/ppppk1pp/2n5/4p1n1/2BP4/2N5/PPP3PP/R1BQ2KR b - d3 0 10[/fen]
(1 white win & 1 draw from here on my database)
10 Dec 07
Originally posted by ih8sensI am a fan of the Traxler. However, as with any gambit you have to at least appear to seem objective.
hey man you want a game and I'll make your play look cheap 😉
.. I thought you were a big fan of the traxler? Guess I'm wrong 😛.
I really think the line I gave is the best for white.
I don't have Fritz. What does it score for my line & what improvements does it suggest for white?
10 Dec 07
Originally posted by Squelchbelchit gives it as better for black and ends up winning for black when you play it out 🙂.
I am a fan of the Traxler. However, as with any gambit you have to at least appear to seem objective.
I really think the line I gave is the best for white.
I don't have Fritz. What does it score for my line & what improvements does it suggest for white?
Sorry man 😛.
10 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ih8sensI would definitely take black in the Traxler fairly happily. I play 1..c5 normally, but when I dabble in 1..e5 I'm always angling for a Traxler. I just find it annoying when people strut around claiming something is bad for Black, and don't actually have any basis. It's hurting their chess. At least Squelch then presented a line, which looks to be a good try for an advantage in my opinion. Basing an assessment of a position on 2 games is absolutely preposterous, especially without mentioning who these players were, when the game was played, etc.. hence my comment about the need for some chessplayers to read some stats books. 😀
Rofl.
So I guess you're pro-traxler tony?
BTW: I would be hesitant to try this 7..Bxf2+ line as Black. I would much prefer something a little slower such as 7..d6!? I screwed around with Junior for a while and came the conclusion that White is slightly better, but after some clever moves and chess gymnastics, Black has his fair share of chances in a very messy position.