Apparently. So says some Christian churches. Some interesting Christian church doctrines
1. To get forgiveness of sins one must profess faith in Christ and his resurrection.
2. Christians have a free pass to the Kingdom of God.... Because their sins have been forgiven.
Here John contradicts several church doctrines:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:1-3 KJV)
1. Jesus died for the sins of the world not just Christians
2. Jesus is a propritation for the world not just Chrsitians. Jesus is not just an advocate for Christians but for the whole world.
3. Only if someone keep the commandments, then they know Christ.
4. The criteria for having your sins forgiven is to know Christ and those who keep the commandments know Christ. Those professing faith as Christians mistakenly believe they know Christ but that is not supported in the bible.
Are all the sins of professed Christians forgiven?
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:24-25 KJV)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV)
Two points are made crystal clear by Paul:
1. Christ died for past sins. that means that a Christian professing faith is washed clean of his past sins and his inherited sin from Adam. What about sins committed subsequent to his conversion?
2. If he sins wilfully then there is no automatic forgiveness.
So the church doctrine that Christians have a free pass to the Kingdom of God because all their sins are forgiven is a false doctrine
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@rajk999 saidCouple of points on this.
Are all the sins of professed Christians forgiven?
[i]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:24-25 KJV)
For if we sin wilfully after th ...[text shortened]... tians have a free pass to the Kingdom of God because all their sins are forgiven is a false doctrine
I believe the first verse you quoted is referring to sins committed before Christ was crucified. That becomes clearer when you look at another translation.
Here’s the NIV:
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--"
On the second verse, Paul is speaking to Jews who are entertaining Christianity but also thinking of going back to Judaism.
The knowledge of the truth (of the New Covenant) is not the same as belief in it. Knowledge doesn’t make someone a Christian; belief does.
The Jews whom Paul was addressing were thinking of going back to Judaism, but Paul is telling them there are no more sacrifices for sins (after Christ’s sacrifice.) So if those Jews reject Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross for the remission of their sins and go back to Judaism, there are no more sacrifices for sins - the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant is gone.
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@rajk999 said<< 1. Jesus died for the sins of the world not just Christians.>>
Apparently. So says some Christian churches. Some interesting Christian church doctrines
1. To get forgiveness of sins one must profess faith in Christ and his resurrection.
2. Christians have a free pass to the Kingdom of God.... Because their sins have been forgiven.
Here John contradicts several church doctrines:
[i]My little children, these things write ...[text shortened]... sing faith as Christians mistakenly believe they know Christ but that is not supported in the bible.
Right and wrong. Jesus died for the sins of the world (i.e. everyone) but to have your sins forgiven, you have to accept the gift by accepting and believing in Jesus Christ. Anyone can become a Christian - you don’t need to pay a membership fee, you don’t need to be approved by anybody, you don’t need to belong to a church.
But you do have to accept and believe in Jesus Christ.
<<2. Jesus is a propritation for the world not just Chrsitians.>>
Right, but you have to accept the gift.
<<Jesus is not just an advocate for Christians but for the whole world.>>
He’s an advocate for His sheep.
“Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
(John 10:24-28)
<<3. Only if someone keep the commandments, then they know Christ.>>
Really? The Pharisees kept the commandments. They were obsessed with keeping the commandments. Did they know Christ. In the verse I quoted above, Jesus makes it clear the Pharisees are not His sheep.
<<4. The criteria for having your sins forgiven is to know Christ>>
To know Christ? In what sense? Did you mean to believe in Christ? Knowing and believing are two different things.
<<and those who keep the commandments know Christ.>>
So someone (say an atheist) who keeps the commandments knows Christ?
<<Those professing faith as Christians mistakenly believe they know Christ but that is not supported in the bible.>>
You don’t seem to understand the difference between professing faith and having faith.
Believing in Jesus Christ is how one gets saved.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
(John 3:16)
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
(Romans 10:9)
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”
(Acts 16:30-31)
@pb1022 saidNot really. You are missing the point and twisting the bible. That doctrine condemning born-again Christians who revert to a life of sin, is stated several times by the Apostles-
Couple of points on this.
I believe the first verse you quoted is referring to sins committed before Christ was crucified. That becomes clearer when you look at another translation.
Here’s the NIV:
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his ...[text shortened]... Judaism, there are no more sacrifices for sins - the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant is gone.
You accept Christ
You are baptised into Christ
You are washed clean of your sins.
You are born again
You go back into a life of sin
You are forgiven
You are washed clean of your sins.
You go back into a life of sin
You are forgiven
You are washed clean of your sins.
You go back into a life of sin
Hey .... that aint working with God.
God puts a stop to that hypocrisy
And Pullease, dont come with that line that born again Christians have the Holy SPirit and they will do good works and live righteously.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV)
So the bible is clear and your church is preaching nonsense.
@pb1022 saidLets take a look again at this from John
<< 1. Jesus died for the sins of the world not just Christians.>>
Right and wrong. Jesus died for the sins of the world (i.e. everyone) but to have your sins forgiven, you have to accept the gift by accepting and believing in Jesus Christ. Anyone can become a Christian - you don’t need to pay a membership fee, you don’t need to be approved by anybody, you don’t need to belong to a church.
But you do have to accept and believe in Jesus Christ.
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 KJV)
The act of propitiation is making amends and atonement for sins. So Jesus was doing that, according to John, not only for ... our sins [Christians], but for the whole world as well
So there are two categories of sins,
1. Our sins or Christians sins
2. Sins of the rest of the world
According to you a man would have to change from being in group 2 and move into group 1 and become a Christian, in order for Jesus to atone for his sins. Then John would just have to say .. Our Sins,,, and not mention sins of the whole world. Jesus is in fact atoning for the sins of the whole world without the whole world having to convert to Christianity.
This flaw in the doctrine of Christianity is the very same flaw that the Jews suffered from in the days of Pauls preaching. It is a kind of pride and haughty attitude, mixed in with selfishness, that God belongs to us [the Jews]. Now its Jesus belongs to Christians. Christians cannot stand knowing God has put things in place so that other groups can be saved by the death of Christ and have an opportunity for eternal life in the Kingdom.
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This flaw in the doctrine of Christianity is the very same flaw that the Jews suffered from in the days of Pauls preaching. It is a kind of pride and haughty attitude, mixed in with selfishness, that God belongs to us [the Jews]. Now its Jesus belongs to Christians. Christians cannot stand knowing God has put things in place so that other groups can be saved by the death of Christ and have an opportunity for eternal life in the Kingdom.
This paragraph only shows the extent some false teachers will go to bribe their conscience with what they think of good rationales for not receiving Jesus as Lord.
To do something else - like scold Christians for sometimes displaying faults similar to those of the ancient religious people.
Ie. "This comparison will absolve me of feeling any need to confess my Lord is the Lord Jesus. I am pointing out the wrongs of those to whom I am superior. That qualifies me not to have to confess the Lord Jesus as mine."
This is the deception of bribing the conscience.
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Balaam was the Gentile prophet of God who went astray trying to profit from
cursing Go's people Israel. He was hired by Balak to use his skill to curse the Israelites. He tried from this angle. Then he tried from that angle. Then he tried from yet another angle. Whatever vantage point Balaam observed the Israelites to bring down a curse on them, God rejected it and caused Balaam to bless them instead to his frustration and Balak's infuriation.
Obviously the Israelis did have some faults. There seemed ground for Balaam to criticize, But God looked at His people through the eyes of His redemption and replied -
King James Bible Num. 23:21 -
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.
Balaam the exploiting prophet was salivating to curse Israel. God made him prophesy from the divine viewpoint. God's people are redeemed and He has not seen perverseness in His people.
God is not always on the side of the one who can dredge up fault, condemnation, accusation.
It is significant to me that God refers to Jacob. Jacob was the man who was TRANSFORMED by God from Jacob to Israel. Through God's curriculum of dealings, discipline, and God working on him, Jacob the conniving scoundrel, cheating his brother, eventually was transformed into a prince of God full of spiritual maturity.
"He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: " His people are still in God's process and He is able to perfect them contrary to the eager accusations of their enemies.
The story of Balaam's accusation is in Numbers 23.
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@rajk999 saidYou really seem to avoid the word “believe” when it comes to Jesus Christ and His Resurrection. Is that because you don’t believe Jesus Christ was the prophesied Messiah? I asked you that once before and you didn’t answer. Do you believe in Jesus Christ’s Resurrection?
Not really. You are missing the point and twisting the bible. That doctrine condemning born-again Christians who revert to a life of sin, is stated several times by the Apostles-
You accept Christ
You are baptised into Christ
You are washed clean of your sins.
You are born again
You go back into a life of sin
You are forgiven
You are washed clean of your sins.
You ...[text shortened]... he mire.
(2 Peter 2:20-22 KJV)[/i]
So the bible is clear and your church is preaching nonsense.
Born-again Christians will not revert to a life of sin. But occasionally sinning and living a life of sin are two very different things.
Those verses from 2 Peter talk about “knowledge” of Jesus Christ, not belief. One can have knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection and not believe them.
I’ll get back to you later today on the Hebrews’ verses.
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@rajk999 saidAnd why didn’t they keep the commandments that Jesus introduced? Because they lacked mercy and compassion and had hearts of stone. They were legalistic in the extreme. You don’t see yourself in them?
Wrong, the Pharisees did not keep the commandments. You seriously need to understand what Jesus meant by keeping the commandments.
What would you have done to the woman caught in adultery in John 8? The Law said she should be stoned. Would you have stoned her?
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@rajk999 said<<Christians cannot stand knowing God has put things in place so that other groups can be saved by the death of Christ and have an opportunity for eternal life in the Kingdom.>>
Lets take a look again at this from John
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 KJV)
The act of propitiation is making amends and atonement for sins. So Jesus was doing that, according to John, not only for ... our sins [Christians], but for the whole world as well
So there a ...[text shortened]... groups can be saved by the death of Christ and have an opportunity for eternal life in the Kingdom.
So you think people who reject Jesus Christ, even people who don’t believe in God, get eternal life?
Shall I present these verses again?
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
(John 3:16)
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
(Romans 10:9)
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”
(1 John 2:22-23)
“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”
(1 John 5:11-12)
“And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”
(Acts 16:30-31)
@sonship saidWhen you have nothing to say, say nothing
Balaam was the Gentile prophet of God who went astray trying to profit from
cursing Go's people Israel. He was hired by Balak to use his skill to curse the Israelites. He tried from this angle. Then he tried from that angle. Then he tried from yet another angle. Whatever vantage point Balaam observed the Israelites to bring down a curse on them, God rejected it and caused ...[text shortened]... eager accusations of their enemies.
The story of Balaam's accusation is in Numbers 23.