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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiecardinal george pell seemed to think there was things to debate with richard dawkins, and archbishop onaiyekan thought there were worthy things to debate about christianity on the intelligence squared debate with stephen fry. the debate about homosexual marriage or women priests continues. there are hundreds of topics worth debating regarding religion.
debate? what is there to debate? christians are counselled not to engage in debate,
(1 Corinthians 1:18-21) . . .For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to
those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is God’s power. For it is
written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the
...[text shortened]... to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save
those believing.
debate is healthy.
17 Jul 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieanother epic fail, logical fallacy extraordinaire, straw man of a thousand straw men, no
cardinal george pell seemed to think there was things to debate with richard dawkins, and archbishop onaiyekan thought there were worthy things to debate about christianity on the intelligence squared debate with stephen fry. the debate about homosexual marriage or women priests continues. there are hundreds of topics worth debating regarding religion.
debate is healthy.
one is saying that there is nothing worthy to debate, but all these things you have
mentioned are non entities for a Christian, the bible is explicit, marraige is for men and
women, homosexuality stands condemned, men are to shoulder the responsibility of
teaching the congregation exclusively, its only persons who either do not know what the
Bibles counsel is or who have pushed it aside to establish their own criteria, al la Adam
and Eve, who debate these things, for the Christian who upholds Gods word, these are
non issues.
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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillim not sure i agree with you there, although the users mentioned can all make intelligent and articulate points the majority will tend to post and run. like some sort of christian guerrilla warfare. so far i think your the only one (for me) that has traded opinion for opinion without trying to change the subject or getting defensive. which is not bad considering the amount of annoying questions i hurl in your direction.
I miss epiphinahas. But he told me that .... well, maybe what he told me was private.
Anyway, I am not the only one here attempting to answer questions and share the Gospel.
And I may not be the better at it. You have Suzzaine and Kelly Jay and I think some others. And the Jehovahs Witnesses AT LEAST are clear on God being the Creator and King.
And others whose tags I cannot recall on the fly.
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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"debate? what is there to debate? christians are counselled not to engage in debate,"
another epic fail, logical fallacy extraordinaire, straw man of a thousand straw men, no
one is saying that there is nothing worthy to debate, but all these things you have
mentioned are non entities for a Christian, the bible is explicit, marraige is for men and
women, homosexuality stands condemned, men are to shoulder the responsibility of ...[text shortened]... d Eve, who debate these things, for the Christian who upholds Gods word, these are
non issues.
-robbie carrobie
"no one is saying that there is nothing worthy to debate"
-robbie carrobie
so there are lots of great things to debate, but your advised not to.
what is 'straw man' about my examples? i gave you several example of christians being involved in debates. im not sure what your getting at. i would appreciate if you could explain the logical error i made.
17 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfiethe logical error is stating that there is nothing worthy to debate, its a logical error and a straw man as no one was claiming this. They cannot be Christians if they do not follow the teachings of the Bible, can they. They are something else.
"debate? what is there to debate? christians are counselled not to engage in debate,"
-robbie carrobie
"no one is saying that there is nothing worthy to debate"
-robbie carrobie
so there are lots of great things to debate, but your advised not to.
what is 'straw man' about my examples? i gave you several example of christians being involve ...[text shortened]... re what your getting at. i would appreciate if you could explain the logical error i made.
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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiewhere did i say that there is nothing worthy to debate?
the logical error is stating that there is nothing worthy to debate, its a logical error and a straw man as no one was claiming this. They cannot be Christians if they do not follow the teachings of the Bible, can they. They are something else.
where did i say that they do or do not follow the teachings in the bible?
17 Jul 12
Originally posted by stellspalfiethere are hundreds of topics worth debating regarding religion,
where did i say that there is nothing worthy to debate?
where did i say that they do or do not follow the teachings in the bible?
the intent of this was to construe that i had somehow stated that there were not things
worth debating, this is of course not the point i was making at all, simply that the issues
that you raised are non issues for a Christian guided by the Bible. I apologise if I
have misrepresented what you were saying.
17 Jul 12
5 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfie
im not sure i agree with you there, although the users mentioned can all make intelligent and articulate points the majority will tend to post and run. like some sort of christian guerrilla warfare. so far i think your the only one (for me) that has traded opinion for opinion without trying to change the subject or getting defensive. which is not bad considering the amount of annoying questions i hurl in your direction.
im not sure i agree with you there, although the users mentioned can all make intelligent and articulate points the majority will tend to post and run. like some sort of christian guerrilla warfare. so far i think your the only one (for me) that has traded opinion for opinion without trying to change the subject or getting defensive. which is not bad considering the amount of annoying questions i hurl in your direction.
Don't expect Christians to sit with you and hold your hand indefinitely, forever, from now on, while you hunker down into your position of unbelief taunting and challenging "But you haven't convinced me yet."
If that seems like post and run to you from me, it will just have to appear that way.
To touch God, to contact God, eventually you should pray to God. You have to use the right organ to substantiate the reality of God. And that right organ is your comatose and deadened human spirit. You have to excercise your own human spirit to pray.
Even if you overpower you with logic SO strong that you are left crumbling in a corner under the sheer weight of inescapable rational argument (lol, like that's going to happen) if you do not finally reach out to Christ the PERSON in prayer, I don't know what good argument has done.
An illustration - A man is on a desert island. He is very hungry. You bring to him two things:
1.) A meal
2.) A menu
Now you can argue about the menu until you are blue in the face. If the man does not at some point put the meal in his mouth, bight, chew, taste, swallow, digest, etc no amount of discussing the menu will feed his stomach.
If the chemical analysis of that meal is presented with 600 pages discribing every part of that meal in all its molecular components, and the man does not EAT, he will remain unfed.
To hear music you have to use your ears. If you try to use your tongue, you will not get the music because you are using the wrong organ.
To see a colorful picture you cannot stick it into your ears. You have to approach it with the correct organ - the eyes.
There is a part of your being which can taste, touch, reach out and contact Jesus Christ. That is your human spirit. And you have to pray. You cannot touch God directly with your mind. You can touch God directly with your praying spirit.
I did not say the mind is of no use. I said you cannot touch God directly with your mind.
So, speaking for myself, I know my limitations. And eventually I know if the person is not willing to pray to touch Jesus Christ, he will not experience God. I know this coming to Christ can take years for some. But I cannot pray for you (as you). I cannot confess I am a sinner for you. I cannot ask the faithful Christ to come into my heart according to His reliable promise, for you. And I cannot sit with you forever and make you believe.
Now if that looks to you like weakly hit and run, guerilla warefare, it will just have to look that way. Discussion can be very interesting. It can also be self defeating if the more one talks the less he want to privately reach out in prayer to have a talk with Jesus.
So stellspalfie, maybe you won this argument. Maybe you won a lot of arguments. If you win every argument and get saved through faith in Jesus Christ, I am overjoyed.
Now, did I mention that on the THIRD DAY .... on the THIRD DAY ... Jesus rose from the dead ? "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit". As life giving Spirit this Jesus can come into our kernel, our innermost being.
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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywill" If that seems like post and run to you from me, it will just have to appear that way. "
[quote] im not sure i agree with you there, although the users mentioned can all make intelligent and articulate points the majority will tend to post and run. like some sort of christian guerrilla warfare. so far i think your the only one (for me) that has traded opinion for opinion without trying to change the subject or getting defensive. which is not bad ...[text shortened]... it". As life giving Spirit this Jesus can come into our kernel, our innermost being.[/b]
i think you should re-read what i wrote. i was actually trying to pay you a compliment.
"Don't expect Christians to sit with you and hold your hand indefinitely"
id say it was more of an arm-wrestle than holding hands.
" Even if you overpower you with logic SO strong that you are left crumbling in a corner under the sheer weight of inescapable rational argument (lol, like that's going to happen) if you do not finally reach out to Christ the PERSON in prayer, I don't know what good argument has done.."
i said to you earlier i would pray a few time to see and i have done so, ill report back my findings after a week or two. as for rational arguments, its not a weight on my shoulders its the driving force of human development and advancement, it is good to debate and get things out in the open, it leads to understanding.
"Now if that looks to you like weakly hit and run, guerilla warefare"
you added the word 'weakly' to my comment, which changes the tone of what i wrote quite a lot. nothing wrong with guerilla warfare. its good for frustrating your opposition.
"So stellspalfie, maybe you won this argument. Maybe you won a lot of arguments. If you win every argument and get saved through faith in Jesus Christ, I am overjoyed. "
id swap it all to win one argument with my wife!!!!!
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17 Jul 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiethat was not my intent. i thought you were implying that christians shouldnt get involved in debates because the bible covers everything so there is nothing left to debate. i gave you examples of christians debating to show that this is not the case and that despite the bible there are still issues that christians debate with each other and also lots to debate with non christians.
there are hundreds of topics worth debating regarding religion,
the intent of this was to construe that i had somehow stated that there were not things
worth debating, this is of course not the point i was making at all, simply that the issues
that you raised are non issues for a Christian guided by the Bible. I apologise if I
have misrepresented what you were saying.
its always nice to get an apology, thanks robbie. you do get snippy very quickly though. wheres all that jesus type patience i thought you all had.
😀
i like it though, it adds a bit of edge to the arguing. its like a football match is always better when theres been a few bad tackles.