gods image

Originally posted by jaywill
See if popular vote will change God ?

Fine, give up trying to justify the unjustifiable. But at least have the decency to admit it. That you do not actually have any justification for Gods actions in this instance. Trying to side step the issue is not going to win you any followers.

He wants you to [b]believe in Christ.[/b]
Not true. That topic would be worthy of another thread, but when it has been discussed in the past it has been admitted by some Christians that if God wanted me to believe then I would, and the fact that I don't can only be attributed to God not wanting me to believe. I rather doubt that you can do better given your track record so far in this thread.

Originally posted by jaywill
See if popular vote will change God ?

While some of you are conetemplating how popular opinion may be used to change the unchanging eternal God some should spend some time to consider God's salvation.

All the sins of the world were judged on that cross, in the Man. He doesn't ask us to grovel and beg. He commands us the [b]believe..

God is ...[text shortened]... r resurrection life. " [/b]

That is a good and effective way to come to Christ.[/b]

its not like this is the only issue with god that you ignore to concentrate on the good he does. i and others on here have pointed out lots of dubious moral behavior that is glossed over or ignored by believers. there is lots of illogical, morally wrong or just plain nonsensical.

1. god putting the knowledge of good and evil in a bloody tree.

what? this is nuts, he has the power to do anything, he doesnt actually need to put the knowledge anywhere, he has no rules he has to follow. he could keep it in his head. if he isnt in control of everything and has to stick to some rules then put the tree somewhere impossible to get to.

2. adam and eves punishment.

yes they did a bad thing, everybody else can be forgiven and gets multiple chances with god. not adam and eve though oooooh no. they get a punishment so severe it ends up with the whole of humanity becoming so evil that they have to be almost wiped out twice by god to clean the earth......although despite god being perfect neither attempt actually work and the world remains evil. the punishment leads to thousands of years of wars,pain and suffering. he created a system in which their sin also would lead to the creation of cancer, aids, malaria and the rest.
sin is not a class thing, yet the majority of gods punishments effect the poor...whats that all about?

3. the rest of the old testament.

violent for no reason, selfish, arrogant, egotistical, sexist, various accounts of infanticide, genocide, racism and every other form of 'evil' as shown by god.

4. jesus comes.

great jesus is here to spread a peaceful, loving word. god seems to have cleaned up his act and wants us all on board for a big love-in.....accept anybody that lives too far from the middle-east. they can just f-right off. the man with power to do anything, cant be bothered to send an emissary to the america, s.america, australia, africa or the far east?????? this you have to admit it bizarre. or an example that the creators of the bible new little or nothing of these continents at the time, too much of a coincidence dont you think.
either way its still cruel and morally wrong to judge these people.its like a cruel wicked joke, letting all these people waste their lives worshiping made up gods, especially if you think of all the human sacrifices made in a stupi attempt to make a crop grow or get some rain. sick.

5. jesus on the cross.

sacrifice means nothing when your dad is god. it reminds me of a song by a british band called 'pulp' the song 'common people' is about a girl who's dad is very rich, wants to escape the trapping of wealth and live like poor people, the singers points out that she can do everything that a poor person does but at the end of the day she can always call her dad and he can stop it all, so she can never truly understand what it feels like to be poor' and this is the main problem with jesus. i think it would have been better it jesus wasnt the son of god, if he was just a really good dude that was willing to die to make people reconsider the way they lived their lives.
the other problem with the cross business is that it is purely made up idea by god. there is no rules governing god. he can sort anything out anyway he wants. yet he chooses a method that is actually going to take another few thousand years to resolve. why? because he wants things to get really bad before he steps in. why? why not just do it now, every day that goes by is another day in which he is allowing suffering. more crazy morals.

i could go on all day......


do you have kids jaywill? would you be able to enjoy eternity in heaven if your children were in hell?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
sin is not a class thing,

Actually sin is inheritable (according to the bible) and so it probably is at least partially a class thing. Also being a member of 'Gods chosen people' is inheritable too.

Originally posted by jaywill

the god you believe in is mentally ill and needs to be cured and if that's not possible, he needs to be locked away

I have no doubt that it is your mind which is sick and warped and twisted.

And it is getting sicker. Its really rather sad to see your decline.

Christ is, however, the Great Physician. There is hope for all of us because of Jesus Christ the Great Physician.

Originally posted by jaywill
Christ is, however, the Great Physician. There is hope for all of us because of Jesus Christ the Great Physician.

Unless he can turn back time, then he's the type of physician that lets someone dye then says 'well at least he's not sick anymore'. You cannot undo suffering even if you carry out eternal punishment on the perpetrator, or even if you sacrifice your self in some sort of symbolic self mutilation.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
its not like this is the only issue with god that you ignore to concentrate on the good he does. i and others on here have pointed out lots of dubious moral behavior that is glossed over or ignored by believers. there is lots of illogical, morally wrong or just plain nonsensical.

1. god putting the knowledge of good and evil in a bloody tree.

what ds jaywill? would you be able to enjoy eternity in heaven if your children were in hell?

My replies to this will hopefully be brief.

its not like this is the only issue with god that you ignore to concentrate on the good he does. i and others on here have pointed out lots of dubious moral behavior that is glossed over or ignored by believers. there is lots of illogical, morally wrong or just plain nonsensical.

My way of dealing with lingering misunderstandings I have about God's ways, is to realize that He is working ever to transform His people into the image of Christ. I know that my ultimate destiny in salvation is to be conformed to the image of His Son. I know that in mind, emotion, will the Holy Spirit is ever operating to transform us by the renewing of the mind to be like Christ in thought, motice, intention, incliation, opinion, judgment, expression, nature, and glory.

I see no descrepency at all between the Son and the Father. And I believe that if I do not appreciate and see with perfect clarity all of God's ways today, when I am conformed fully to the image of Christ, I will see clearly.

Many, many things which I did not understand or like, I have been subdued by the Holy Spirit in my journey into the image of Christ. Yet not all things are clear. I have a confidence that more less than perfectly clear matters, will be made clear as I arrive within to be in full harmony with the Father - AS Christ the Son of God is one with the Father.

The Apostle Paul agrees - "For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known. Now there abide faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love." (1 Cor. 13:12,13)

This I believe is the symbolism portrayed in the book of Revelation when it speaks of the overcomers standing on the sea of glass in chapter 16. Underneath that sea of glass is the fire of judgment. But the glassy sea, I think, symbolizes total clarity, crystal clear transparency of seeing things from the viewpoint of God Almighty.

"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his imasge andf from the number of his name [666] standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty ! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations ! Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name ? For You alone are holy; for all nations will come and worwship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested." ( Rev. 15:2-4)

1.) The standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire should remind us of the Israelites standing on the other side of the Red Sea after the enemies of God had been swallowed up and drowned in the Red Sea from persuing them.

2.) In the end of history the Satanified world under the leadership of the Antichrist fights to destroy God's people. But God's "righteous" judgment defeats them and saves His people.

3.) In the glassy sea God's people can finally see with full clarity the nature of Satan's rebellion and the wonderful righteousness of God's judgment.

4.) God "ALONE" is holy - "For You alone are holy" . The Source of spiritual perfection, purity, and beauty is God. All creation needs to be reconciled to Him who alone is holy.

5.) His ways, even at this juncture of casting His enemies into the lake of fire, are "righteous and true" . And they have been manifested. The dispensation of His forebearance and merciful longsuffering comes to a point when there will be no more holding back of His right judgment.

6.) There is no excuse for anyone with wisdom to reverence His nature, His ways and fear His Holy and Righteous Being - "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name ? "

So I expect to agree with God and see all things eventually as His sons would see. I am not bothered terribly by matters yet not fully comprehended by me. I am not held back by my limitation in eloquence to explain all of His ways to the aggressive examiner.

It is not a system I am in but a living Person. When my mind, emotion, and will are fully conformed to be like Christ, I will see all things as the God of truth sees.

Incidently, the Bible says that " We know that the judgment of God is according to truth upon those who pracrice such things." (Rom. 2:2)

I believe that God's judgments, even those which are ultimate and undiluted with further mercy, are according to truth. In the relatavistic age I was brought up in, and in the post modern world philosophy, it is difficult to see that some thing could be simply "according to truth."

But there is ample examples of God tempering His judgments with great mercy, correction, forebearance, understanding, mercy, and thought of recovery of the one dealt with. But there is also that final and ultimate dealing to destroy the enemy, the advasary who has become a curse - worthless, vile, hateful, unredeemable, uncorrectable, unrepentant, perpetually at enemity with God.

"Go away from Me, You who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41)


I believe both kinds of judgment are "according to truth."

Originally posted by twhitehead
Unless he can turn back time, then he's the type of physician that lets someone dye then says 'well at least he's not sick anymore'. You cannot undo suffering even if you carry out eternal punishment on the perpetrator, or even if you sacrifice your self in some sort of symbolic self mutilation.

Unless he can turn back time, then he's the type of physician that lets someone dye then says 'well at least he's not sick anymore'. You cannot undo suffering even if you carry out eternal punishment on the perpetrator, or even if you sacrifice your self in some sort of symbolic self mutilation.

As far as eternal separation from the Physician is concerned that is not Him "letting someone die". That is the sick one refusing to see that he is indeed sick and taking his self chosen way.

Putting slanderous words into the mouth of Christ as you have done here, doesn't taint His wonderful character.

" ... He said, Those who are stong have no need of a physician, but those who are ill. Go and learn what this means, .... I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

In refusing to realize one's sickness before God and one's need for the divne doctor, one embraces forever his own sickness. He cannot then blame the Savior that He did not reach out to him.

You take your self chosen stubburn way of rejecting the Doctor.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
its not like this is the only issue with god that you ignore to concentrate on the good he does. i and others on here have pointed out lots of dubious moral behavior that is glossed over or ignored by believers. there is lots of illogical, morally wrong or just plain nonsensical.

1. god putting the knowledge of good and evil in a bloody tree.

what ds jaywill? would you be able to enjoy eternity in heaven if your children were in hell?

do you have kids jaywill? would you be able to enjoy eternity in heaven if your children were in hell?

I do have children who are now grown. Thankfully, as I was bringing children into the world and contemplating the seriousness of doing so, I and my wife prayed very much.

Before they were born I cried out to God for wisdom to bring them up in the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus. I put my hands upon my wife's womb and prayed in faith for this human being which I was responsible for coming into the world.

Thankfully, my children were raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord Christ. I do not say they are a a carbon copy of jaywill in every respect. Thankfully they are not.

But God was faithful in that my concern for the seriousness of creating a human being in marriage, called for petitioning God that I raise them to know the Bible and Christ's salvation.

Now let is suppose I had been unsuccessful to guide them, at least, to believe into Christ.

Yes, today, the thought would be very very bad indeed if one had been lost. But what I said above applies here. I am being transformed into the image of Christ in mind, emotion, will, thought, realization, and concept. When I finally arrive to be fully conformed to the image of Christ, I am sure that however God sees the matter, I too would be in full harmony and concur with truth.

No one is more concerned for their salvation than Jesus. No one went to the degree to save them as Jesus went. No one wept for them as Jesus wept because He is God / Man. And no one was more burdened, more crushed with the desire for their reconcilation, than Jesus.

I do not love my children with a love that surpasses the love of Jesus.

Now let us examine the matter from another angle. Let us examine the matter as a parent who has been lost to hell but knows that he or she still has living children who have to make a decision. Not a pleasant thought. But this is the exact thought conveyed by Jesus in the 16th chapter of the Gospel of Luke.

That is the rich man who opened up his eyes in hell, yet had five brothers still living. (Five, in the Bible, is a number signifying responsibility. It is the responsibility ultimately of the living brothers to choose their destiny before God.)

To this situation I would say, that the only happiness that you can render to a loved one who has perished, perhaps the only relief you can render them, is that you do not go to the same place that they wish you would not come to.

"And he [rich man] said, Then I ask you Father, to send him [Lazarus] to the house of my father - For I have five brothers - so that he may solemly testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said, No Father Abraham; but if someone risen from the dead would go to them, they will repent. But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:27-31)


1.) Christ is the one Teacher who has risen from the dead. On the subject of death it is totally foolish of us not to listen to what He teaches.

2.) Do not go to the same fate as any loved on who has gone there. That will make them perhaps, just a little less tormented.

3.) The time to teach and warn and above all, be an example, to your loved ones about God, is when you are alive. Start today with prayer and repentance.

Don't wait until you die or afterwards to be concerned for your loved ones to meet the God of salvation.

Originally posted by jaywill
As far as eternal separation from the Physician is concerned that is not Him "letting someone die". That is the sick one refusing to see that he is indeed sick and taking his self chosen way.

You missed the point. By standing by and doing nothing about suffering, God is 'letting the patient die' as his cure. I said nothing about eternal separation, and was not referring to future events but rather talking about the fact that suffering is ongoing and the so called doctor is nowhere to be seen.

Putting slanderous words into the mouth of Christ as you have done here,
I did no such thing.

You take your self chosen stubburn way of rejecting the Doctor.
Not true. I do not choose to reject God or Jesus, I simply do not believe either or them exist - and this is based on evidence not choice.

its not like this is the only issue with god that you ignore to concentrate on the good he does. i and others on here have pointed out lots of dubious moral behavior that is glossed over or ignored by believers. there is lots of illogical, morally wrong or just plain nonsensical.

1. god putting the knowledge of good and evil in a bloody tree.

Adam was warned by God that in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die.

It may puzzle us that the choice was there to be made. But there is no mistaking that fair warning was given by God not to eat of it.

Notice much of the same thing is happening today. You are warned of not taking the way of unbelief in the Savior Jesus. But you are emboldened on by lies portraying God as a despot, a tyrant who does not have your best interests at heart.

You speak of "I and others ..." this and that. But the full weight and consequences of your choice will be upon yourself and no one else.

what? this is nuts, he has the power to do anything, he doesnt actually need to put the knowledge anywhere, he has no rules he has to follow. he could keep it in his head. if he isnt in control of everything and has to stick to some rules then put the tree somewhere impossible to get to.

I don't understand this criticism. But God did not create a robot in creating Adam. He created a being who could choose God's way or choose the other way. He had been fairly warned about the result of choosing the other way.

And when Adam did choose the way of death, the rest of the Bible tells the story of God's refusal to give up on the man He loves. The unfolding of redemption and salvation occupies the rest of the revelation.

Even the way God came to Adam after Adam had sinned, is touching. He came asking Adam "Where are you?" . God wanted the sweet communion that He and the innocent man enjoyed before.

The question "Where are you?" God still asks every sinner today. God wants you to stop, consider, and think about where we really are. If we would heed the question of the Gospel "Where are you?" I think many of us would realize we are alienated from our Heavenly Father. We are scared, running from God, hiding from God with a head full of suspicious lies. With a mind poisoned with suspicion that He really does not love us or really care for our ultimate welfare.

Lies. All lies. Our God is not the enemy of mankind.

2. adam and eves punishment.

yes they did a bad thing,

The promise of a deliverer and a salvation comes immediately. A prophecy that the one who has deceived them will be crush in the head. But in the process the one who crushes him will be bruised on the heal. The Crusher will be inflicted with a wound in His dealing with the deceiving serpent.

This was a prophecy concerning Christ, the Son of God coming to deal with the Devil in His death on the cross -

"And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman [Eve] And between your seed and her seed; He will vruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Genesis 3:15)

So we not only have divine discipline meeted out to our first parents. We have this prophecy that the Son of God would come as the crusher of the serpent. The Son of God would come as the virgin's son - "the seed of the woman". This a prophecy of the coming Son of God born from the virgin woman as the woman's seed.

He nullified the effect of Satan's scheme on the cross of Calvary. And at the end of history He will deal with the final Antichrist - the seed of the serpent.

So we ever see the faithful heard of the Savior God even as He righteously pronounces chastizement of death upon Adam and Eve.

everybody else can be forgiven and gets multiple chances with god. not adam and eve though oooooh no.

I do not know if I will see Adam and Eve in the New Jerusalem. Perhaps they will be redeemed. They did apparently offer the sacrifices which symbolized the coming Redeemer. At least they must have tought their sons Cain and Abel to do so.

I would suggest to you, that rather than spend your main sympathies on Adam and Eve (who had a chance at something we will never know), you would be better off considering your own reaction to God's offer of salvation.

Much time has been alloted to you. And you are apparently using it to bolster more and more reasons, arguments, excuses, rationals that you do not need to be saved.

It would be a terrible irony if Adam and Eve had eternal life, yet you, as one of their descendents had not the wisdom to avail yourself of Christ's salvation.

I have to go now.

Originally posted by jaywill
But there is no mistaking that fair warning was given by God ......

Notice much of the same thing is happening today. You are warned of not taking the way of unbelief in the Savior Jesus.

Not true. A warning that you do not believe is not 'fair warning' by any measure. Do you consider yourself warned if I tell you that not praying to Thor is going to cost you in the long run? Of course not, you wouldn't believe me. Similarly, I do not believe you, nor anyone else that warns me about belief in God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Not true. A warning that you do not believe is not 'fair warning' by any measure. Do you consider yourself warned if I tell you that not praying to Thor is going to cost you in the long run? Of course not, you wouldn't believe me. Similarly, I do not believe you, nor anyone else that warns me about belief in God.

Not true. A warning that you do not believe is not 'fair warning' by any measure. Do you consider yourself warned if I tell you that not praying to Thor is going to cost you in the long run? Of course not, you wouldn't believe me. Similarly, I do not believe you, nor anyone else that warns me about belief in God.

I understand the thought of some to try to secure for themselves a place of benigh neutrality. I understand the hope of taking refuge in some kind of aloof position, like perhaps the moderator of a discussion, objective, not involved.

First of all, The New Testament made it very difficult for us to take this position. Do not blame me. Christ, made it difficult to etch out this neutral position of imagining I need not respond to the Gospel:

"He who believes into Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil." (John 3:18,19)

You may react as you feel to. My reaction is that this teaching makes it very difficult for me to place hope in some benigh, seemingly detached position in which I do not have to respond to the Gospel. He that does not believe is already under condemnation because of his unbelief. This is what Christ said. Do not blame me.

Then He continued on - "For every one who practices evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his works be reproved. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they are wrought in God." (vs. 20,21)

The impression I get from this saying is that it is honorable to come to Christ believing in Him for salvation. It may seem demeaning to the world. But actually it is honorable to acknowledge one's need for the Savior Jesus. His works, especially his works of belief and repentance, are manifested that they are wrought in God.

At any rate the position you seek, to be not responsible because you do not believe, is at best a reckless gamble.

As to the Thor comparison ? The philosophy "Because I do not regard seriously Thor, or Isis, or Odin, or any number of mythological figures, it securely follows that I need not take seriously Jesus Christ" does not work for me.

The life, words, and deeds of Jesus occupy a quality class which has only one member. Even Moses, Samuel, David, Noah, or other declared righteous individuals to not compare to Christ. Pretending to associate Christ along with Thor, my conscience would protest, that this is a stretch of artificial comparison. And I would not take refuge in that attempted association.

You go ahead and take refuge in that association if you want to.

2. adam and eves punishment.

yes they did a bad thing,

Some people do not understand this. I didn't for a long time.

When Adam and Eve took of the tree that was forbidden, they did not only do a bad thing. They became corrupted with a foreign element. They Satanified the human race. They took into themselves an element and were constituted with this poison.

If a mother warns her child not to drink of a certain bottle of poison, and the child disobeys, the child has two problems.

1.) The child has transgressed the instructions of the mother in disobedience.

2.) The child has taken in poison into their body which continues to destroy them.

So it is not only that Adam and Eve transgressed. They took into the human race the poison of the satanic nature and element.

So man needs an extensive salvation, which fortunately God has provided in Christ's redemption and sanctification through indwelling and transformation.

Originally posted by jaywill

2. adam and eves punishment.

yes they did a bad thing,

Some people do not understand this. I didn't for a long time.

When Adam and Eve took of the tree that was forbidden, they did not only do a bad thing. They became corrupted with a foreign element. They Satanified the human race. They took into themselves an element and we ...[text shortened]... has provided in Christ's redemption and sanctification through indwelling and transformation.

the mother does everything in her power to get the child better as quickly as possible.

a good mother makes sure the poison is out of reach in the first place.

all of this is irrelevant, god has magic powers and could anything to fix the situation. magic the poison out, turn make time and change things, turn the poison into wine...blah..blah...blah.

you can think up ways to try and make it work for you, but at the end of the day it doesnt make any sense. if it was the story to a hollywood movie you would be laughing at the gaping plot holes.


ive got a problem, the shelf where we keep dangerous household products broke yesterday and i cant think of anywhere safe to put the bleach, floor and oven cleaner. maybe i should put the oven cleaner in the kids juice cartons and i could maybe inject the bleach into the apple pie i made. i can always tell the kids not drink the juice or eat the pie while im out of the room. im sure everything will be fine.

Originally posted by jaywill
Thankfully, my children were raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord Christ.

Have whatever superstitions you like but installing them in children is unforgivable.

This is my number 1 criticism of religion and why I am now "anti-religion". How can raising a child in fear be right?

Show me a relgion that insists on children not being indoctrinated and I will be very impressed.