10 Jul 12
3 edits
cont.
At least I know that no one is getting away with anything. And there is a final judgment. But with Atheism all hypocrisy goes unpunished in the ultimate sense. The Atheist knows that all the wicked will only melt peacefully into the dust of the earth. There is no last judgment. And there is no accounting to a final Judge.
So things done in the name of Jesus which all can see are not Jesus, do not turn me away. And if you would be objective about it, I think you would have to also recognize that much food has been put into hungry stomachs, under the banner of Christ, much clothing has been put on naked backs, under the banner of Christ, much help to suffering humans has taken place in history, under the banner of Jesus Christ.
So, I think, if you are objective about it, and honest, you would admit that much good has been dispensed under the banner of Christ's teaching as well.
Name me five humanitarian organizations set up by Atheists with "Atheism" as a part of the title.
And if you really talk about sheer body count, the 20th century has witnessed more murders under the enfluence of Atheist ideologies then in any other time in history. Millions slain by Atheist idealogies far outweighs the numbers of slain by religious Christianity's persecutions.
Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Tsetung together have slain so many millions of people under their Atheistic philosophies. So let's be a tad more objective about this.
The 8 to 10 witches killed at the Salem witch trials by religionists pales to the hordes of corpses piled up by statesmen embracing Atheism as the best human philosophy promising some dubious utopia to the masses who bring their necks under its iron heel.
Now I expect the skeptics to swing into action and insist that Stalin and Mao were Fundamentalist Christians. So be it.
At any rate, what did Jesus Himself do to harm you?
What did Jesus Himself do wrong to anyone ?
So, I have set my heart to follow Jesus.
10 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillI have often asked theists on this forum and am yet to get a satisfactory answer, can you do better: what purpose(s) does this judgement serve?
At least I know that no one is getting away with anything. And there is a final judgment. But with Atheism all hypocrisy goes unpunished in the ultimate sense. The Atheist knows that all the wicked will only melt peacefully into the dust of the earth. There is no last judgment. And there is no accounting to a final Judge.
Is it a deterrent?
Is it correctional?
Something else?
10 Jul 12
6 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere are judgments which are correctional in nature.
I have often asked theists on this forum and am yet to get a satisfactory answer, can you do better: what purpose(s) does this judgement serve?
Is it a deterrent?
Is it correctional?
Something else?
There are judgments which are for the remedy of character issues.
There is a judgment seat for Christians.
The final judgment of the great white throne is not correction. It is retribution. What kind of God would He be if He warns of retribution for irreconciliable rebellion, but doesn't act on His word ?
Retribution is not for correction. Not this final time. This final time it is eternal punishing.
Now I will not engage on a long back and forth with you. If you are interested, two books on this have been helpful at least to me -
"The Last Assize" by G.H. Lang.
" Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades " by Robert Govett.
Both can be obtained from Schoettle Publishing which is also online.
Both books were written to address the arguments of "Universalism."
Now for the judgment which Christians are to undergo, and the rewards and punishement prescribed by God to those for whom the question of eternal redemption has been settled in the affirmative, I would recommend -
"The Judgment Seat of Christ" by Robert Govett.
Of all the doctrines of theologians, one of the ones that I really wanted to believe to most was Universalism. I came to the arguments of the Universalist (that no one will be lost forever) with a fully opened heart and mind. If there was something there I sincerely wanted to see it. I tried. But in good conscience I could not be convinced. Their reasonings just could not pass the test of clever twistings.
You're probably not interested in that.
10 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfie
ill keep this one short, ive got pots to wash, cups of tea to drink and work to avoid.
" Are you being realistic here ? In one instance you complain that there are contradictions in our approaches to the teaching of the Bible. Then in the next breath you seem to suggest no one has any questions."
i meant that the bible is riddled with contradi tians on here. where does that leave them, does god love a christian sinner more!!!
jaywill:
Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
stells:
sorry j its not for me. i would be talking to myself, i dont have much to out pour anyway.
Okay. But many a person has come to know God in this honesty of pouring out the heart to God.
You really don't know for certain that you would only be talking to yourself.
Let me give you a testimony of someone else I know of. He was into drugs. To make it short, he overdosed one night. He was a young guy. And he was lying on the grass helpless. According to him he could hear what was going on around him perfectly, but he could neither say anything or move.
He heard his friends standing over him. One of them said, "Let's just carry him over there into the bushes and put him there." He could hear them talk. But he could not move a muscle. He was terrified. He thought they would take him for dead when he was still alive.
Then he heard the voice of a woman crying in the distance. "Lord Jesus, have mercy on the child !! "
When he heard that, he said his whole being was immediately filled with PEACE. Its OK. God was in control, he thought. The terror stopped. The peace of the Holy Spirit filled him though he was practically dead.
Now this was the testimony a Christian gave me as to how he became a believer. I believe his testimony. You see, you worldly guys look down on faith as a poor poor little miserable thing which has no power. But in truth a little faith can awake the FAITHFULNESS of the living God.
In my opinion, when he heard that voice of that woman shout "Lord Jesus, have mercy on that child" his heart had just a little faith that God could help him. And I believe that God flooded in in response to that little bit of faith.
Don't feel sorry for us. Faith in Christ is mighty. Faith as a grain of mustard seed, is strong because it is placed in the FAITHFUL God.
NOW. Have I said anything this morning about the RESURRECTION ?? I have to say something about the RESURRECTION.
He ROSE ! He ROSE from the grave. He was victorious over sin and death. What a WONDERFUL JESUS.
" I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes into me, though he were dead yet shall he live. And he who lives and believes into Me shall never die."
I must stop now. I am beside myself with joy. I'm sorry.
if i did have a lot to get off my chest and i let it all out then would experience a natural high afterwards, which im sure could easily be mistaken (for those looking for something to believe in) for a spiritual experience. if god did exist i would only speak to him if he communicated through speech, rather than a series of vague feelings.
I could tell you many true accounts of God's suprisng ways of letting people know that He heard and is the living God.
But I will say this. With God and with faith, there often seems a little bit of room to doubt if you wish.
"But what if that really wasn't the same man who was crucified ?"
"But what if it was just a coincidence that that prayer was answered ?"
"But what if it really wasn't God taking me up on my request ?"
"But what if it really wasn't God who made Sarah have a baby? Maybe it was just lucky."
"But what if ... but what if ... but what if ..."
Eventually, you learn the program. There is always a little bit of room to say "But what if ...". You learn.
Faith is the way that God puts Christ the Person more and more into your being for a blended and united life with God -
"That Christ may make His home in your heart through faith"
I don't fully know why God has chosen this way. But in this span of time, He has. Perhaps it is because faith leaves NOTHING for man to boast or brag about in himself.
Anyway, do as you feel. Faith in Christ certainly has served me for 30 plus years.
10 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillI will ask again. What purpose does it serve? I see you do not even attempt to answer this. Do the references you give answer it, or are they purely descriptive?
Retribution is not for correction. Not this final time. This final time it is eternal punishing.
Can you at least give a hint?
10 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadOne word of the post that I wrote, repeated now, is my answer since you missed it the first time .
I will ask again. What purpose does it serve? I see you do not even attempt to answer this. Do the references you give answer it, or are they purely descriptive?
Can you at least give a hint?
Retribution. (Concerning "the great white throne" judgment, the last judgment of Revelation 20.)
I have given you no new answer. I have repeated what I wrote before - the purpose is retribution. Don't pretend that you are being ignored or evaded.
Go study the word "Retribution" on your own.
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10 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywill"Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
jaywill:
Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
stells:
sorry j its not for me. i would be talking to myself, i dont have much to out pour anyway.
Okay. But many a person has come to know God in this honesty of pouring out the heart to G ...[text shortened]... eel. Faith in Christ certainly has served me for 30 plus years.
if i do it, can i spend the time asking god all the questions i have, can i be critical of him? or will he ignore me, or strike me down? i dont really have any emotional things unload, the only reasons i can think to talk to god about is stuff i think he's doing wrong.
drug addicts turning to god is not advert for the truth of religion, all it proves is that a good religion provides a good environment for a drug abuser to focus their energy and thoughts away from drugs and to gain support from caring people.
islam also has a great track record for helping people recover from drugs by taking on a faith.
i dont feel sorry for you. i understand the power of faith. look at the strength of placebo pills or herbal remedies faith in drugs and fake treatments can give people the will to get better. look at all the people who truly believe in horoscopes they gain strength from the predictions of star alignments, doesnt make it real, try telling them that.
rising from the dead is nothing to be exited about when your dad is god. its a minor miracle when compared to the complexity of creating everything. i really dont understand why you guys get so excited about this one miracle in particular. i dont think it would even make my top 10 of bible miracles.
are you amazed or surprised he was victorious over sin!!!! lets look at the facts.
his dad decided what was and wasnt sin.
his dad can do anything.
sin still exists
he died because he had his hands and feet smashed to bits. we'll have to take his word about the rest as nothing seems to have changed.
last time his dad sorted sin by killing almost everybody.
this time his dad decided only killing one person would work.
why did god just send jesus the first time rather than flooding everything. was the 2nd coming god admitting that his first plan didnt work. why did god bother killing everybody in that city (the name escapes me) if he's gonna kill everybody else later anyway.
everybody with half a brain knows that carrot beats stick every time when trying to reform people. why is all stick with god, with the carrot only being dangled at the end?
where do you think your life would be without christianity?
10 Jul 12
3 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfie
"Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
if i do it, can i spend the time asking god all the questions i have, can i be critical of him? or will he ignore me, or strike me down? i dont really have any emotional things unload, the only reasons i can think to tal being dangled at the end?
where do you think your life would be without christianity?
"Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
if i do it, can i spend the time asking god all the questions i have, can i be critical of him?
I do. You didn't notice some people in the Bible critically wrestling with God ?
Honesty, He seems never to reject. I do not recommend that you go in blaspheming. But to have an honest problem with His ways ? Sure. You disagree with His way and you want to tell Him ? Sure. Pour out your heart in honesty.
The Psalmist rightly wrote - " I love the Lord because He hears my voice, my supplications, Because He inclines His ear to me ..." (Psalm 116:1,2)
He loved God because he discovered that God listened to his voice.
or will he ignore me, or strike me down?
He is very wise. I do not know how exactly God will respond to your prayer.
But I recommend anyone to have an honest talk with God. Prayer is really a talking with God. I do not recommend you go in flippant and blaspheming.
Now I will tell you what is very very very effective. Go in with thanksgiving.
Even better - Go in with confession of your sins.
You just may touch the "event horizon" and get pulled into His presence.
He loves you. He knows what you are going to utter even before you do so. It is mysterious. He just loves you and wants you to come to Him anyway.
i dont really have any emotional things unload, the only reasons i can think to talk to god about is stuff i think he's doing wrong.
I have gone to God with that thought. And I talk it over with Him.
If the Son of God prayed three times that the cup be removed from Him, He left us an example that we can come thus to the Heaveny Father. Then after praying to His Father three times that the cup of His upcoming crucifixion be removed, He concluded "Not my will but Yours be done."
Now some people think this only means that He would die if it was the Father's will. No. it means that the Father's will was all that mattered.
Ie. If it was the Father's will for the Son to be saved from the cross, that is what mattered. He would then not go to the cross to die.
Ie. If it was the Father's will that the Son would indeed die on the cross, that is what mattered. He would then not spare Himself of the cross.
It was only the will of the Father that mattered - "Not My will but Yours be done." But the point here is that Christ was a genuine man as the Son of God. And He left us an example. If the Son poured out His petition to the Father, even requesting the removal of the unpleasant thing, we too may follow His example.
God will empower us in the end to say "Amen" to His will. But also God will now allow us to be tempted above what we are able. So have an honest talk with God. If you go in calling Him Father and pray in the name of Jesus Christ ... well, that is most effective.
Anyone can pray. That does not mean that there are [not] good prayers and better prayers, effective prayers and less effective prayers. I am encouraging you to pray. I am not encouraging you to be as sloppy about it as you can.
drug addicts turning to god is not advert for the truth of religion, all it proves is that a good religion provides a good environment for a drug abuser to focus their energy and thoughts away from drugs and to gain support from caring people.
The testimony I related to you was dramatic. Not all comings to Christ are this dramatic. Not all are this sudden.
And support from caring people does not have to mean Christ is not real. We can have both. And it is good that we DO have both - the horizontal love as well as the verticle love.
My opinion is that God caused that woman to cry out aloud in order to let the young man know that Jesus Christ was the answer to his life and death situation. The heart turned and the Lord came in.
Do you know who we are dealing with. God maintains the things going on in a billionth of a trillionth of a micro second. It is nothing to Him. He has the hairs on your head numbered. You pluck out a hair from your scalp and God knows precisely which numbered hair that was you pulled out.
He names the stars. He does marvelous things past our finding out. Do you realize who we are dealing with ? This is God we are dealing with in prayer.
islam also has a great track record for helping people recover from drugs by taking on a faith.
And other means also. I do not deny that. Are you going to grasp at that in order to convince yourself that Christ is not the Lord ?
I think it is a mistake to say "Well, because I can also receive some help with my problem over here, having apparently nothing to do with God, therefore I will do so and not come to God."
This can result in grasping at any rational not to come to Christ for salvation. You will never be forced.
i dont feel sorry for you. i understand the power of faith. look at the strength of placebo pills or herbal remedies faith in drugs and fake treatments can give people the will to get better. look at all the people who truly believe in horoscopes they gain strength from the predictions of star alignments, doesnt make it real, try telling them that.
The competition of OTHER means of phenomenon is also covered in the Bible.
One notable example I like is with Moses and Pharoah's magicians. God instructs Moses to go to Pharoah and throw down his staff and it will turn into a serpent. He didn't tell Moses that Pharoah's magicians would say " No big deal. We can do the same thing."
With their deep arts of Satanic miracles they imitated Moses, cast their rods down and they also transformed into serpents. Probably embarressed Moses a little bit. Moses's rod eats up the other serpents though. Little by little Moses pulls ahead of the Egyptian wise men and they are not able to stand perpetually before him. Eventually they tell Pharoah ' "This is the hand of God."[/b]
The lesson for believers is that the worldly philosophies, the world religions, the worldly ideologies are often able to imitate the work of God to a degree.
So when I see Pharoah's magicians and wise men do similar to the prophet of God, I do not throw up hands and quickly assume that there is no difference.
Thank God for the unspeakable wisdom of the Bible.
Concerning our talk, I won't humor you forever. The things I see you have written below this suggest that you have enough of my fellowship to act or not act as you wish.
Thanks for the talk. Moving on now. I am not poor little Christian begging you to believe in the Son of God. You choose. You decide.
10 Jul 12
I meant to write this:
Anyone can pray. That does not mean that there are [not] good prayers and better prayers, or there are [not] effective prayers and less effective prayers. I am encouraging you to pray. I am not encouraging you to be as sloppy about it as you can.
10 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillI have looked it up and am non-the wiser. So I will ask again: what purpose does it serve? I am not pretending that I am being ignored or evaded, I honestly believe that you are deliberately trying not to answer the question. You have twice tried to refer me to a third party that you know full well does not answer the question.
I have repeated what I wrote before - the purpose is retribution. Don't pretend that you are being ignored or evaded.
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10 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillthere seems to be a pattern of you giving an example of the benefits, proofs or behavior of god. i give you an example who this or that can be found elsewhere so is not a unique experience you can attribute to evidence of god. then you say yes i know this can be found elsewhere."Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"
if i do it, can i spend the time asking god all the questions i have, can i be critical of him?
I do. You didn't notice some people in the Bible critically wrestling with God ?
Honesty, He seems nev ...[text shortened]... gging you to believe in the Son of God. You choose. You decide.
my point is, do you realize that by giving example that can be attributed to something else or can be seen in other religions indicates that you are just feeling or thinking what millions of non christians are, therefore you are not setting yourself apart from other religions and proving yours is the real one. it just indicates that you are just the same as everybody else. you are yet to say anything that makes your or any christians experience unique, which they should be able to do if yours is the true religion.
despite my criticisms im willing to show im open minded and ill try praying. one more question before i do. does it matter if 99.99% of me doesnt believe? i think youve told me before that you have to open your heart to god when you turn to him. which indicates to me that you have to want to believe before you pray.
also, how much raying should i do to say ive given it a fair crack of the whip?
i hope you appreciate this, my wife is going to p**s herself laughing if she catches me praying and i probably wont hear the end of it for months.
you say "go in with your sins". im not exactly sure what a sin is. i mean i know the big ones, im not sure what else is an actual sin that i need to confess. is there a list. or can you give me an overview.
" You just may touch the "event horizon" and get pulled into His presence.
He loves you. He knows what you are going to utter even before you do so. It is mysterious. He just loves you and wants you to come to Him anyway."
well his love is creepy. the fact he loves everybody kinda takes the special-ness of him loving me, so ill take his love with a pinch of salt.
im sorry j but all that stuff about jesus being a real man and x happened so y could happen and god showed us this so we could learn that. is all irrelevant, if you have the power to do anything in anyway, anything you do has no true value. god does not know what it feels like to sacrifice his son, if he can bring his son back, god doesnt know how it feels being forced to do something horrible to resolve a situation because he can make up any set of rules to resolve anything. you can only feel the importance of these experiences if you feel true jeopardy. also even if god for some reason did not have the power to bring back jesus and death on the cross was the only way to resolve sin (due to it being outside of gods control and powers) god knows the outcome of everything so he would be fine about his son being killed because he knows he's coming back.
"The lesson for believers is that the worldly philosophies, the world religions, the worldly ideologies are often able to imitate the work of God to a degree."
the majority have existed before christianity and due to global location were unaware of the christian gods existence. far east, the americas, africa, australasia all have and have had religions in which people have the same euphoric sense of well being and all the other emotions that go along with spirituality. do you really think you feel something they didnt? were they just pretending or suffering from delusion? what do you put their experiences and faith down to?
11 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillyou can't use "retribution" as a description for "eternal punishing." they are not compatible.
Retribution is not for correction. Not this final time. This final time it is eternal punishing.
retribution is defined as a just reward, or payment in kind. for example, an "eye for an eye" is retribution.
therefore, retribution can't be used in context of "eternal" punishment for a finite crime (ie: any possible crime committed while living on earth). and we haven't even begun to talk about the nature of the law that's being broken, weather it is ethical or not.
so it is not retribution that biblegod promises with the final judgement. it is cruel and unusual punishment.
this is something most civilized humans recognize and consider it important enough to codify in their bill or rights, and important enough to make it to the universal declaration of human rights.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
humans have more sense than your mad god.
11 Jul 12
5 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you can't use "retribution" as a description for "eternal punishing." they are not compatible.
retribution is defined as a just reward, or payment in kind. for example, an "eye for an eye" is retribution.
therefore, retribution can't be used in context of "eternal" punishment for a finite crime (ie: any possible crime committed while living on ear rading treatment or punishment.[/quote]
humans have more sense than your mad god.
you can't use "retribution" as a description for "eternal punishing." they are not compatible.
God has the sovereign right to inflict punishment showing His infinite displeasure. Against the transgressor refusing forgiveness extended by God, He will manifest displeasure without end. Therefore there is eternal punishment.
The unreconciled will discover God's power to inflict misery on His foes forever. "fearful looking for of judgment and firery indignation which shall devour the ADVERSARIES" (Heb. 10:27)
In this age of mercy salvation is extended. The refusers have proven themselves foes of God and adversaries of God. God speaks to His Christ - "Sit at My right hand until I make your ENEMIES Your footstool." (Matt. 22:44; 1 Cor. 15:25) . God will inflict unending punishment upon His foes, His adversaries, His enemies.
"Those Mine ENEMIES, that I would not reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before Me" (Luke 19:27)
The grounds of His punishing is two fold: punishment for evil acts, and punishment against evil character, as the bases of those acts.
1.) The judgement of God will be at last "according to works:" (Rom. 2:6; 2 Cor. 11:15; 2 tim. 4:14; Rev. 20:12,13; 22:12
2.) But the judgment is also as regards the character of the wicked.
Jesus taught that the deeds were the fruit of the tree. The fruit speaks of the nature of the tree. Both John the Baptist and Christ discribe lost as evil trees sentenced to the fire (Matt. 3, 7).
The enemies of God have a vested interest in judging their penalty for opposing the eternal God, as a light thing. This is like asking a congress of theives around the world to convene and decide what the just punishment should be for stealing. Or it is like asking a world-wide congress of rapist to meet and determine what the penalty for rape should be.
Those who set themselves up to oppose God cannot possibly be expected to determine what the just penalty should be for doing so. They have a vested interest that there be no penalty, or a light penalty.
God is Sovereign. And He determines what the penalty will be. This is dreadful. And the Bible tells us that He is to be feared (Luke 11:4,5; Matt. 10:28; 5:27-30; Psalm 76:7). In fact we are told that the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
Briefly here, the other side of the issue is that God has made provision for the reconciliation of His enemies through the death of His Son -
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom 5:10)
Before I was even born, before you were even born, God had made provision for the reconciliation of His enemies through the redemption of Christ. And He made provision for the transformation of their character by making it possible for the reconciled to be saved in the realm of His life. Two matters then, are involved in Christ's salvation:
1.) The reconcilation of the enemies for their deeds through Christ's death.
2.) The transformation of the reconciled in the sphere and realm of Christ's resurrection life.
But the main point here is that Divine Retribution is up to God's sovereignty. And He purposes to inflict unending punishment on those who refuse His forgiveness.
retribution is defined as a just reward, or payment in kind. for example, an "eye for an eye" is retribution.
Above I showed you how the character of the sinner who refuses forgiveness remains the same. It is always forever, full of sins. This is the destiny he has chosen. And not only his deeds are judged but the perpetual evil character is too.
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (Rev. 22:11)
Ultimately the rebel has chosen to remain frozen in character, as an enemy, an adversary, a foe of the eternal God. And the wrath of God will abide upon such forever.
The heart of nature is an endless source of sin apart from God's salvation - Gen. 6:5; 7:21; Matt. 25:19; James 3:8-12) Such a heart is at enmity with God (Rom. 8:7). Hence there is for the perpetually unreconciled refuser of God's salvation, everlasting punishment.
therefore, retribution can't be used in context of "eternal" punishment for a finite crime (ie: any possible crime committed while living on earth). and we haven't even begun to talk about the nature of the law that's being broken, weather it is ethical or not.
Apparently, eternal punishment, is the teaching that Christ warned against. It is significant that such a terrible matter came out of the same mouth which spoke the words of greatest longsuffering, mercy, love, forgiveness, pardon, kindness.
This SAME Person, who gave to the world the most impressive words of love, mercy, and forgiveness ALSO gave to us the words of the most terrible consequences of not being reconciled to God. We cannot take the pleasant words and reject the unpleasant. We have to consider seriously BOTH teachings.
When I first heard of time dilation I was intrigued. As man approaches the speed of light time slows down. It seems that in the mighy constants of the universe when one limit is approached something ELSE has to give to balance things out.
The consequences of rejectng God's salvation are so awesome, I have to consider that there is something ELSE in the equation which I must be underestimating. And that something else is WHO it was who died upon that cross. That something else is the significance of WHO it was who suffered and bled and died for my sins. If I have a low estimate of who the person was, then I do not understand the severity of eternal damnation. But my realization encreases of Who it was on that cross and what He did there, the seriousness of refusing its benefits comes more into focus.
To balance things out we have to consider Who the Son of God on that cross of redemption really was. The New Testament says that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
In a sense God went as far as it was possible for Him to go that we would be forgiven.
this is something most civilized humans recognize and consider it important enough to codify in their bill or rights, and important enough to make it to the universal declaration of human rights.
Article 5
We may make some comparisons between man's laws and God's. But not in every sense can we.
Thus the root of the lost sinner's misery is the opposition of nature between himself and God. Jehovah is holy, just, and good. The lost is unholy, unjust, selfish. Now this holy character of God abides unchangeably. So does the sinner's own character of evil. He hates God even in this world, while surrounded by so many blessings. How much more will he, when the terrors of God's indignation are assailing him! - Robert Govett
As the saved enter the new heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem because they are now both righteous, and sanctified; so the lost enter the lake of fire because they are sinners unpardoned, and unclean.
So we should come to Christ that we may be pardoned and sanctified.