gods image

Originally posted by jaywill
Got it ! Confidently affirm things about the Bible like you really know what you are talking about. Then when called to back it up send the inquirer off to Google.

Good bluster.

Half of Genesis alludes to gods creating everything and there are plenty of references to other gods. The OT is just a mishmash of polytheism and monotheism. What ...[text shortened]... ng is that much later this plurality of gods is used to support the idea of a Trinity!

You have obviously wasted far more time than me studying the bible and you will know exactly what I am talking about and have your answers ready and waiting.

I believve what I said is true and as a theist you must surely accept belief without proof.


😏

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You have obviously wasted far more time than me studying the bible and you will know exactly what I am talking about and have your answers ready and waiting.

I believve what I said is true and as a theist you must surely accept belief without proof.


😏

You have obviously wasted far more time than me studying the bible and you will know exactly what I am talking about and have your answers ready and waiting.

It is better to be genuine rather than be caught in error and use "wasting of time" as your reason for not being able to substantiate your claims.

I find that the Bible has that strange effect on some people. The less they study it, the more they fancy themselves to know all about it.

Exactly what I showed you was strong and undeniable monotheism from the major prophet of Isaiah.

The word Elohim is plural and we do have a Genesis 1 verse 26 "Let Us make man in our image". But the very next verse 27 does not say "But God created man in [THEIR] own image" but rather the singular is used -

"And God created man in His [singular] own image ..."

The " Us " and the "Our" of Genesis 1:26 suddenly become the "His" in the next verse. So polytheism is not established. It is a bit of a paradox. And the triune nature of God is, I think, the best explanation for the paradox.

If you think it is a waste of time to study the Bible then you probably think it is a waste of time to receive any proper exegesis of it also. So I think you have a kind of superficial "hit and run" method of discussing it. What I really hear from you is apathy.

I believve what I said is true and as a theist you must surely accept belief without proof.

I don't need absolute proof. Few things in life we have absolute proof of. I believe because of substantial evidence that it is right for me TO believe. I received Christ. It was not a blind leap of faith.

It may have been a leap with a soft landing. There is my faith on one side. But there is God's encredible FAITHFULNESS on the other side.

And we have plenty of confirming evidence of the Bible telling us of truth. I are assured that we are on the right track to believe and receive Christ as Lord.

Originally posted by jaywill

You have obviously wasted far more time than me studying the bible and you will know exactly what I am talking about and have your answers ready and waiting.

It is better to be genuine rather than be caught in error and use "wasting of time" as your reason for not being able to substantiate your claims.

I find that the Bible has tha ...[text shortened]... assured that we are on the right track to believe and receive Christ as Lord.

" I don't need absolute proof. Few things in life we have absolute proof of. I believe because of substantial evidence that it is right for me TO believe. I received Christ. It was not a blind leap of faith"

of coarse you have no way of knowing if you are deluding yourself, so should really take these supernatural feelings you have with a pinch of salt.
it seems the need for the human psyche to create supernatural beings has plagued the human mind for centuries, from local deities to the famous greek and norse gods, it would seem even if the christian god doesnt spread his word to your corner of the globe, its inherent of human nature to create a stop gap god to fill in till the real thing comes.
how do you know what you feel is any more real than what orceterix the celt was feeling about his local god contrebis in 200 b.c.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
" I don't need absolute proof. Few things in life we have absolute proof of. I believe because of substantial evidence that it is right for me TO believe. I received Christ. It was not a blind leap of faith"

of coarse you have no way of knowing if you are deluding yourself, so should really take these supernatural feelings you have with a pinch of s ...[text shortened]... more real than what orceterix the celt was feeling about his local god contrebis in 200 b.c.

of coarse you have no way of knowing if you are deluding yourself, so should really take these supernatural feelings you have with a pinch of salt.

Warnings like this are nice. But they always seem to assume that an intense individual spirituality is all there is to the Christian life.

While my experience is subjective it is not totally individualistic. We grow together in a thousand localities over the globe. You could read some of the testimonies of hundreds who have volunteered to vouch for the experience of Christ's savlation:

Here on this world map you may see only some other congregations experiencing the same thing on all five continents:

http://localchurches.org/contact-us/index.htm

And here you may read of testimonies arranged by cities:

http://localchurches.org/testimonies/index-A-D.htm

Paul told the Ephesian believers - "So then you are no longer strangers and sojouners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:19-22)

There is something very corporate about being "built together" in the enjoyment of Christ with others around the globe. There is something very powerfully confirming about being fitted together in the experience of Christ.

I know that you will likely respond that "Well, there are lots of Hindus too. There are lots of Moslems too. They all think they know the truth." To which I would reply this is true. It is true at least that some aspect of truth has attracted millions of them. There IS only ONE God. So to that extent, millions of Moslems are on to at least some portion of universal truth.

But across the ages and across the planet millions claim that Christ is available, knowable, and a practical Savior. While I do not offer such as proof that I am not deluded, I do offer it as evidence that you should consider that there is something apparently genuine there.

The Apostle said we are not just lumped together into a big heap. He said we are being built together. We not just gathered together. We are being "fitted together" in love unto a place where our Christ is all in all.

The same mighty corporate experience is expressed in Ephesians 4 -

"But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:15,16)

A fitted together building,
A growing building on a common foundation,
A joined together organic Body,
A Body knit together in its sinews and Body parts,
A Body headed up under one directing Head.
A dwelling place, a habitation of God on one living foundation,
A Body being supplied by every joint for the knitting together in love,
An aggregate collective expression of Jesus Christ,
A collective manifestation of the living Christ in humanity,
Joined members of a corporate one Body,
A Body building up itself in divine life and love -

My individual enjoyment of Christ fits into this great corporate enjoyment of my Christian brothers and sisters around the whole world in multiple cultures, under multiple different forms of government, and multiple national identities, helps to confirm that the Gospel of Christ is true. For it is Christ and Christ alone which joins us together.

Proof, perhaps not. Powerfully confirming evidence though, it certainly is.

it seems the need for the human psyche to create supernatural beings has plagued the human mind for centuries, from local deities to the famous greek and norse gods, it would seem even if the christian god doesnt spread his word to your corner of the globe, its inherent of human nature to create a stop gap god to fill in till the real thing comes.

One way to look at it is to ask WHY the need is there. We NEED to drink water and have children. This alone does not render water and reproduction illusions. We may have some questionable ways of obtaining drink and of recreational activity which produces offspring. But the need is there because there is reality calling out for something in mankind.

So, I agree that some people seem to have a need for the supernatural. That, in and of itself, does little to erase the powerful testimony in history of Jesus of Nazareth who spoke and acted like He was the Son of God.

No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater on this point.

how do you know what you feel is any more real than what orceterix the celt was feeling about his local god contrebis in 200 b.c.

The confirming evidence that one is on the right track to trust in Jesus Christ is tied up with the liberation from sins. When one struggled for one's life and could not free himself, one knows that the salvation he is now experiencing is not coming from himself.

He who commits sin is a slave to sin. When I turn my life over to the Lord Jesus and with cooperation with Him allow Him accesss to every part of my soul, the freedom from bondage to sin which follows is a very powerful confirmation that Jesus Christ the Savior is indeed available and real.

I am pretty certain that this spreading freedom operating in me does not have me as its source. Things seem to be lining up according to God's word and Christ's promises, plus the testimony of others who have gone before. That is others like Peter, John, Paul, James, and other writers of the New Testament who pioneered in this salvation before us. And they gave us heads up as to what to expect. And we are witnessing what they told us. (Then there are also the positive testimonies, biographies, songs, hymns poetry of thousands down through the centuries to confirm the same).

These things also confirm that we are on the right track to believe into the name of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so why does corinthians say that man should not have his head covered because he is the image and glory of god [b]BUT a woman is the glory of man.

there is a clear indication here that it is man who is more god like, does this refer to mans physicality or is it blatant sexism!![/b]

God views men and women alike when it comes to his love and care. He demands that we all respect each other and treat the other as if it were our own body if we are married.
But the Bible makes it clear that the head of the woman is the man. The head of the man is Jesus and the head of Jesus is Jehovah.
Why do you think there is an rank so to say?
Just because one is under another in this way does not mean at all that anyone should be dictator or crule or demanding or disrespectful at all.
Just as Jesus taught us to love, we should all show that with the deepest respect and honor to everyone.
But an order has to be kept in order for all of this to work. In a family situation there has to be one who does have the finale say when a decision has to be made. God created man first and then woman secondly. And it was at that time this order was made. But this respondsabilty that God appointed to man also puts the heavier respondsabilties and the finale one to answer to God should he not do his duty as the head of the family.

1 Corinthians 11:3
New Life Version (NLV)

3 I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man. The husband is the head of his wife. God is the head of Christ.



Ephesians 5:21-29
New Life Version (NLV)

How Wives Must Live
21 Be willing to help and care for each other because of Christ. By doing this, you honor Christ. 22 Wives, obey your own husbands. In doing this, you obey the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. It is His body (the church) that He saves. 24 As the church is to obey Christ, wives are to obey their own husbands in everything.

How Husbands Must Live
25 Husbands, love your wives. You must love them as Christ loved the church. He gave His life for it. 26 Christ did this so He could set the church apart for Himself. He made it clean by the washing of water with the Word. 27 Christ did this so the church might stand before Him in shining-greatness. There is to be no sin of any kind in it. It is to be holy and without blame. 28 So men should love their wives as they love their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 No man hates himself. He takes care of his own body. That is the way Christ does. He cares for His body which is the church.

Originally posted by jaywill

of coarse you have no way of knowing if you are deluding yourself, so should really take these supernatural feelings you have with a pinch of salt.

Warnings like this are nice. But they always seem to assume that an intense individual spirituality is all there is to the Christian life.

While my experience is subjective it is not ...[text shortened]... o confirm that we are on the right track to believe into the name of Jesus Christ.

you use the reasoning that the quantity of human experiencing similar feelings is a testament to the truth of your religion and that other religions have similar feeling because they are kinda on the right path (on this point you dont know if they are correct and maybe you are just on the right path, it is extremely arrogant to claim otherwise as their religion is just as valid as yours, all you can do is hope yours is correct).
okay you use a nice analogy for explaining these feeling, humans need water. the problem is that for this to work it would mean all human behaviors are good for humans.
nothing could be further from the truth, because the human body is so badly designed it has lots of physical and mental flaws which urge the person to do self harm or simply trick ourselves into thinking things that are not true.
every single human being is tricked by their minds on a daily basis. aspects of eye sight are simply parts of the brain tricking us. our ears combine with our eyes to trick us into hearing things all the time.
1 in 10 people suffer from depression, around 1 in 3 suffer a mental illness in their lives.
there is an equal chance that the need to believe in religion is a positive need of the human body as there is it being a mental weakness or a by-product of being self-aware and a lack of knowledge. there are lots of explanations for religiosity being a common human trait.
if it is a good part of human nature helping guide us towards god, then it must have been put their by god. this would make his decision to not appear to the tribes of the world even more disgusting. imagine giving people a need for a god (it also seems very self serving, planting the seed to want a god in humans, wouldnt he want us to want him without almost forcing us) but then sitting back and letting them have to create their own made-up gods. seems rather cruel.


in reference to the testimonies, how do you know who is feeling what? do you do cat scans on everybody to see if the same part of the brain is triggering? how many people just want to feel part of something and fit in.
these are just anecdotal stories, hand picked to promote an agenda. its not like the xyz church will print the story of ned the right wing middle american who follows god because he's had it drummed into him as a child and everybody in the town act like they believe because if you dont you get get ostracized from the community. even presidents have to fake loving god because they are scared of being honest.
the only way to validate the testimonies is to carry out scientific tests on each person. do brain scans, psychology tests, lie detectors.

history is littered with people following the crowed despite how horrific or stupid the behavior is. people can easily become deluded and loose sight of reality. how do you know christianity is just a similar effect as the stanford prison experiment or nazism (i do not mean to compare the horrific nature of these, but the ease in which people become deluded or follow the majority, changing their beliefs (subconsciously) to fit in or survive, physically or emotionally).


phew....rant over.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you use the reasoning that the quantity of human experiencing similar feelings is a testament to the truth of your religion and that other religions have similar feeling because they are kinda on the right path (on this point you dont know if they are correct and maybe you are just on the right path, it is extremely arrogant to claim otherwise as their iefs (subconsciously) to fit in or survive, physically or emotionally).


phew....rant over.

You have quite a few miscellanous points in this post. I only feel to respond to a couple.

I notice that use the word "feeling" much more frequently then I ever did.

Now God is definite. But God is also exceedingly broad. "Whosoever would believe into Him ..." is rather broad. And I find that all the systems of truth finding proposed by skeptics and atheists invariably become more narrow that what the Bible tells me.

"Whosever would believe into Him ..." embraces a larger scope of then I think your philosiphies could invent. Many atheists or skeptics simply regard the masses as not being smart enough to arrive at truth.

Many skeptics consider that people don't know enough about Evolution, are short on Quantum Phsyics, negligent on this or that amino acid, or they don't knonw enough about deep space, Neanderthals, Roman politics, Medieval civilization, etc. etc. etc. to arrive at the truth about the universe.

Look at the majority of arguments here on the Forum. Athiests, agnostic, skeptics regard believers as hopelessly deficient in information on thousands of details to be qualified to know the truth.

So I find Christ's way to be wide in scope and the way of the skeptic to be far far more elite and restricted. "Whosever believes into Him ..." they even find too naive. " What about Quantum Flux and the Multiverse ? You people cannot possibly have arrived at the truth yet."

God's way is far more righteously all-inclusive. The young, the old, the educated, the uneducated, the rich, the poor, the high, the lowly, the cultured, the barbaric all can pass through the door of believing into the Son of God at His word - "Whosoever believes into Him might not perish but have eternal life".

I honestly have never heard a more wide open in scope way to come to the truth of the world then the gospel to whoever would believe.

I have evidence from the New Testament that some people who did not know specifically WHO the Lord Jesus was, will nevertheless have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. I will not go into that discussion now. But I believe Abraham who said "Will not the Judge of all the earth do justly ? (Genesis 18:25)

That conversaion is between Abraham and God as God is about to judge the cities of Sodom and Gamorrah. Abraham checks and re-checks and re-re-checks with God that no one underserving would perish. I think it is significant that this little challenge between Abraham and God is recorded for us.

Now concerning the raw existence of God, this, the Bible says, no man is with an excuse to not realize because of the things created. There is this famous passage about the heavens declaring the glory of God and speaking of God to all peoples in creation -

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night tells out knowledge.

There is no speech and there are no words; Their voice is not heard. In all the earth their line as gone forth, And their words to the end of the world." (Psalm 19:1-4a)

The Psalmist is saying that day and night the creation speaks of the reality of God Almighty. I agree.

Paul on Mars Hill informs the philodophical Greeks that as far as a Creator is concerned, God has never been without a witness to all the earth's people -

"For while I was passing through and carefully observing the objects of your worship, I even found an altar on which was inscribed. TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.

What therefore you worship without knowing this I announce to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, this One, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; Neither is He served by human hands as t hough he needed anything in addition, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things.

And He made from one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, determining beforehand their apponted seasons and the boundaries of their dwelling. That they might seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, even though He is not far from each one of us; For in Him we move and are.

Being then the race of God, we ought not to suppose that what is divine is like gold or silver or stone, like an engraving of art and thought of man. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now charges all men everywhere to repent, Because He has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has designated, havingfurnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead." (See Acts 17:23-31)

There is quite a bit in this revelation to indicate to me that God is extensive is scope while He is nonetheless definite. I may not know all the ways in which He will judge the world's people. But His invitation to some knowledge of the truth of His existence is wider in scope then any philosophy the skeptic could offer as an alternative path to truth.

Originally posted by jaywill
You have quite a few miscellanous points in this post. I only feel to respond to a couple.

I notice that use the word "feeling" much more frequently then I ever did.

Now God is definite. But God is also exceedingly broad. [b]"Whosoever would believe into Him ..." is rather broad. And I find that all the systems of truth finding proposed by skep ...[text shortened]... any philosophy the skeptic could offer as an alternative path to truth.[/b]

there is nothing amazing about being broad and definite. i would also argue that there is nothing definite about a religion that contradicts its self so much and is open to so much interpretation. there is nothing definite about a book that is written with stories that are deemed fact by some and allegorical by others, or a religion in which the nature and behavior of their god changes dramatically half way through.

there is nothing 'broad' about the bible, its an extreme example of narrow, blinkered thought. you ask no question, you do not explore other possibilities. im not saying atheism is wide in thought, its up to the individual in how open minded they are to the multitude of possibilities.

it would seem you think atheists are all a bunch of 'elitist snobs' this is a ridiculous thing to suggest. atheism is not a movement with an agenda, its a word to describe a way of thinking. they are not all super intelligent scientists looking down their noses at the uneducated masses. i hate snobbery, as i have mentioned before i have several religious family members and certainly do not feel superior because of my beliefs.
in no way have i suggested that people should know about history or physics to arrive at the truth, im not exactly brilliant at those subjects myself. all i am trying to do is ask questions. i cant believe you believe in this super being that has created all these, what would seem arbitrary rules (to a god) and not ask yourself why and what does this mean or that mean, why did god do this and so on...not questioning the super beings actions to me seems bizarre, especially as so much of it is illogical.
i think you do me the disservice of presuming my intentions rather than taking my words at face value. i do not ask for historical or scientific knowledge, i like to think i take a humanist approach to my questions, i want to know answers about why things have to be the way they are according to god, what is the nature of god, why is he like that, why has he made the decisions he has, what is the point, why dont christians ask this or that question, why dont they question themselves and so on and on and on, there are a million questions that are important yet the bible seems to only partly answer some and non of the important ones.
we are where we are now because of great people asking great questions, asking questions creates a vibrant open society. yet the bible is taboo, ask no questions, just accept the word of god. the vatican is a microcosm of a society that thinks like that.

gods way may be all-inclusive but many things are, as inclusive as chritianity might be it will never be as all-inclusive as atheism, atheism as no restrictions, you can even believe in god and be an atheist.




"I honestly have never heard a more wide open in scope way to come to the truth of the world then the gospel to whoever would believe."

you must be aware how this makes no sense. something can only be a wide open way to the truth if it is the correct way. as we do not know if it is the correct way it is impossible to judge if it is the most open way. the most open way would be an agnostic approach to accept all possibilities.

your example of abraham was a great example, why dont more people question god. i personally would demand more text. i would want to know exactly how far abraham went. it would seem in the bible abraham just keeps asking the same question " are you sure they all deserve it" he sould be asking "why" or "how do the children deserve it" and "why" or "is there no other way" and "why". did abraham question god over his son?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
there is nothing amazing about being broad and definite. i would also argue that there is nothing definite about a religion that contradicts its self so much and is open to so much interpretation. there is nothing definite about a book that is written with stories that are deemed fact by some and allegorical by others, or a religion in which the nature ...[text shortened]... " or "is there no other way" and "why". did abraham question god over his son?

there is nothing amazing about being broad and definite. i would also argue that there is nothing definite about a religion that contradicts its self so much and is open to so much interpretation.

The Christian gospel has proved to be very all-incompassing indeed. I think you have no case here.

John's glimpse into eternity future suggests that many people from vasstly varied walks of life will take this salvation.

" ... I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of EVERY nation and ALL tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the thone and before the Lamb , clothed with white robes and palm branches in their hands." (Rev. 7:9)

The symbol of palm branches hearkens back to the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles which the Hebrews celebrated to commenorate the end of their wanderings and the entering into divine destination and rest. The picture speaks of a great numberless multitude of humanity concluding the long history pf wandering and coming into the consummation of the Redeemer's salvation.

there is nothing definite about a book that is written with stories that are deemed fact by some and allegorical by others, or a religion in which the nature and behavior of their god changes dramatically half way through.

I don't see it that way at all. The 66 books of the Bible are neither too specialized nor so general as to be meaningless. Nothing suggests, by the vision of that multitude that no one could number, that there were no differences of opinions on less than essential matters. We Christians can be general about quite a number of more minor aspects of the Bible.

there is nothing 'broad' about the bible, its an extreme example of narrow, blinkered thought. you ask no question, you do not explore other possibilities. im not saying atheism is wide in thought, its up to the individual in how open minded they are to the multitude of possibilities.

I don't think you have or are able to come up with such a plan that whosoever believes into Christ may enjoy Christ's salvation. At any rate we know He died for all. I don't know that you have or even could make such a sacrifice for all mankind. And you are not qualified to do so, being yourself sinful and in need of reconciliation to God.

Have you spoken words like those of Jesus, which have been the comfort of millions for over 2,000 years ? If not, why should I expect that Christ needs to learn about largeness from you ?

it would seem you think atheists are all a bunch of 'elitist snobs' this is a ridiculous thing to suggest.

I think many have been carried away by an overestimate of their scientific knowledge. They think they must be smarter than any Creator of the universe. A curious conceit is evident as they compare themselves, say, with the writers of the New Testament.

atheism is not a movement with an agenda,

To some it is. More and more we see conventions for mutual support and militant propogation of Atheist ideas. We have a free country here in the US. And they have the right to marshal their forces. And they use this right.

its a word to describe a way of thinking.

That is not amazing to me.

they are not all super intelligent scientists looking down their noses at the uneducated masses.

Some proponents of the so-called New Atheism are. Richard Dawkins best sellers exemplify such an attitude. I have run into many who regard faith in Christ as a mental disease. Some hold such an attitude that Science has made belief in God obsolete.

i hate snobbery, as i have mentioned before i have several religious family members and certainly do not feel superior because of my beliefs.

We have to be realistic. I hate some of the things which people do under the banner of God and the Bible. I know the feeling.

I neither can saw none such exist nor that ALL Christians behave thus.
Neither one of us can completely distance ourselves from the poor behavior of at least some who share some thoughts with us.

For length sake, I will skip down for something I feel to address.

...

in no way have i suggested that people should know about history or physics to arrive at the truth, im not exactly brilliant at those subjects myself. all i am trying to do is ask questions.

Got it. I did not, I think, say all skeptics are like this.

i cant believe you believe in this super being that has created all these, what would seem arbitrary rules (to a god) and not ask yourself why and what does this mean or that mean,

I ask plenty of questions. How could a Bible student like me not ask many questions. I have some good ones.

why did god do this and so on...not questioning the super beings actions to me seems bizarre, especially as so much of it is illogical.

Was it Emmerson ? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblins of little minds" [paraphrase].

I expect the 66 books of the Bible to contain some deeper matters which are up to discussion. This does not effect many very simple matters which are put forth as the way to be initiated into the salvation.

'Whosever believes into Him ..."

Doesn't demand you believe in Noah's ark.
Doesn't require you believe in Adam and Eve.
Doesn't require you be baptized into cold water as opposed to hot water, river water as opposed to sea water, frontwards as opposed to backwards.
Doesn't even require that you be conversant on the Trinity.

"Whosever believes into Him ..." is very broad. Essentially it is to believe that Jesus Christ is alive and you want Him.

It could be that you are honing in on demanding universal agreement of Christians on some aspect of the Bible which is not the essential proclamation of salvation.

The epistles of Paul show that the early church had differences of opinions on various matters. These differences did not render the Gospel not true.

Likewise, there are several different philosophical approaches to Atheism. They are neither monolithic, except in their unbelief in God.

...

I'll end here.

i think you do me the disservice of presuming my intentions rather than taking my words at face value. i do not ask for historical or scientific knowledge, i like to think i take a humanist approach to my questions, i want to know answers about why things have to be the way they are according to god, what is the nature of god,

I would recommend that for the nature of God you consider, study, read, and pray about the act of Jesus Christ on Calvary for man. This act, more than perhaps all other revelations, discloses the heart and nature of God.

That is His death and resurrection for man's eternal redemption and life salvation. Consider the cross of Jesus as the center of history and the universe.

why is he like that, why has he made the decisions he has, what is the point, why dont christians ask this or that question, why dont they question themselves and so on and on and on, there are a million questions that are important yet the bible seems to only partly answer some and non of the important ones.

I don't know why you would consider that Christians do not have such questions. A casual trip to a Seminary library or even a Christian bookstore would reveal that many consider all kinds of issues to discuss and question.

Are you being realistic here ? In one instance you complain that there are contradictions in our approaches to the teaching of the Bible. Then in the next breath you seem to suggest no one has any questions.

Can you have it both ways ? Which is it ?

we are where we are now because of great people asking great questions, asking questions creates a vibrant open society. yet the bible is taboo, ask no questions, just accept the word of god. the vatican is a microcosm of a society that thinks like that.

Taboo ??? The bible isn't taboo. And not all Christians on the face of the earth are represented by the Vatican. A bunch are. But you don't have to be Catholic.

gods way may be all-inclusive but many things are, as inclusive as chritianity might be it will never be as all-inclusive as atheism, atheism as no restrictions, you can even believe in god and be an atheist.

You should have a talk with VoidSpirit. We've spent post after post arguing about one Dyson Freeman on how he should be classified.

"I honestly have never heard a more wide open in scope way to come to the truth of the world then the gospel to whoever would believe."

you must be aware how this makes no sense.

I don't know why you would say that. The New Testament says that the truth is in Jesus. And Jesus said that He is "the truth".

"Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life ..." (John 14:6)

To touch Christ, to open the heart to Christ, to receive Him is to know "the truth". It is to know the reality. And that is available to whoever believes.

I know of no other system of invitation to know truth more representitive of God's great love for all humans than this. One possible exception, is that God has said His existence is communicated to the whole world through the things which have been made in creation.

"Because that which is known of God is manifested within them, for God manifested it to them. For the invisible things of Him, both His eternal power and divine characteristics, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived by the things made, so that they would be without excuse ..." (Rom. 1:19-20)

Two matters have been shown here:

1.) The way of salvation through believing into the Son of God, holding Him to be alive and available as He really is.

2.) The broader revelation that there must be a divine Creator who made all things. No one is with excuse. The creation testifies that there is a divine Creator with eternal power. We may know no other details. But God says at LEAST that much has been manifested within each person's conscience from the time man has been on the earth.

You know that there is a conversion factor in science discovered by Albert Einstien, E = mc2. It says that matter and energy are two forms of the same thing. There is an exact conversion factor between matter and energy.

Well, I believe this concept is useful in this way. If the total power of intelligent creation could be put in another form, say in the form of moral power, who in human history might exemplify such moral power ?

My opinion would be that Jesus Christ would be the most likely person in human history to manifest such moral power. Now if God's CREATING power was convertable to some related amount of moral power, I think this man Jesus Christ saying and acting as "the Son of God" would best express this conversion.

If you read through the New Testament, I think you should see this.

"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)

I don't the second most likely person in human history, whoever he or she might be, is even in the same class as Jesus . The creative power and wisdom of God converted into spiritual and moral power, I think, is best expressed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

something can only be a wide open way to the truth if it is the correct way. as we do not know if it is the correct way it is impossible to judge if it is the most open way. the most open way would be an agnostic approach to accept all possibilities.

Well, you can run with that. As for me, eventually circumstances compelled me to make a decision. I guess that was God's mercy to me too.

your example of abraham was a great example,

There are some other examples like that. I tend to notice them as I read through my Bible many times. I have to notice these things because I too have questions.

why dont more people question god. i personally would demand more text. i would want to know exactly how far abraham went.

I would suggest you do something like Abraham did. It really has been effective in my own spiritual journey.

Find yourself a nice large field where you can raise you voice in private. And you have a good argument with God. Pour out your heart. Pour out your questions. You can be honest. God never turned away an honest prayer. Pour out your heart to God.

Better yet. Better yet. Take you a Bible with you, point to the passages that you are bothered with, and have yourself a good argument with the Almighty.

Don't think this is sneaky of me. Just IN CASE you are wrong and God is REAL, just in case, have yourself a time to pour out your heart and problems in the ears of God.

Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?

Even the Son of God poured out His heart to the Father - "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken Me ?" . He was a genuine MAN too you know ?

it would seem in the bible abraham just keeps asking the same question " are you sure they all deserve it" he sould be asking "why" or "how do the children deserve it" and "why" or "is there no other way" and "why". did abraham question god over his son

Concerning Abraham's son Isaac. Abraham may have believed that God was going to raise him from the dead. The instructions he gave to his helpers, suggest to some Bible readers, that Abraham expected that God would raise his son Isaac from the dead after Abraham sacrificed him.

"On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. And Abraham said to his young men, Stay here with the donkey; and I and the boy will go over there, and WE will worship and then return to you.

And Abraham took the wood for the burnt offeringh and laid it upon Isaac his son ... " (See Genesis 22:4-6)

The mentioning of "the third day" may be a hint of resurrection as the Son of God rose from the dead on the third day. And Abraham seemed to tell his servants that after the sacrifice he and his sacrificed son would both return to them. I among some other readers, feel this indicates that Abraham believed that God would not allow Isaac to perish in death but would resurrect him.

As it stands, God stopped the ritual before Abraham had a chance to kill Isaac. And the New Testament commentary is that in Abraham's mind Isaac was as good as DEAD and he received him back in resurrection:

"By faith Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac; indeed he who gladly received the promise was offering up his only begotten, Of whom it was said, :In Isaac shall your seed be called"; Counting that God was able to RAISE men FROM THE DEAD, from which he received him back in figure." (my emphasis Hebrews 11:17-19)

Remember, God has already led Abraham through the lesson that his wife and he could miraculously have a child in their old age. Based on that lesson, Abraham probably had faith that the offered only son, would also be raised from the dead.

This is one of many reasons why we believe that this profound Bible is the word of God.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so why does corinthians say that man should not have his head covered because he is the image and glory of god [b]BUT a woman is the glory of man.

there is a clear indication here that it is man who is more god like, does this refer to mans physicality or is it blatant sexism!![/b]

I'll go with the sexist concept.

All that just proves religions are man made and I do mean man. Women don't get to invent religions now. They apparently had their shot till savage men took over the religion business.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I'll go with the sexist concept.

All that just proves religions are man made and I do mean man. Women don't get to invent religions now. They apparently had their shot till savage men took over the religion business.

i don't think that's how it went down. women had their shot until civilized men took over the religion business.

Originally posted by jaywill

there is nothing amazing about being broad and definite. i would also argue that there is nothing definite about a religion that contradicts its self so much and is open to so much interpretation.

The Christian gospel has proved to be very all-incompassing indeed. I think you have no case here.

John's glimpse into eternity future s ...[text shortened]... onolithic, except in their unbelief in God.

...

I'll end here.

"The Christian gospel has proved to be very all-incompassing indeed. I think you have no case here."

i did not deny that the christian gospel is encompasses a lot. but it is not unique in this quality and as there are other philosophies and approaches to life that accept the possibility of the christian god plus all the other possibilities it makes it a lot more potent than just believing in one thing, which is a blinkered way of seeing things.
it doenst matter how many different walks of life people come to christianity from, the same could be applied to athiesm or buddism and many other groups.

"I don't see it that way at all. The 66 books of the Bible are neither too specialized nor so general as to be meaningless."

i didnt actually say anything like this and am unsure why you suggest i did. i did not say they were meaningless!! where did meaningless come from? you cant add words like that, it changes the meaning of my text completely.
i said you can not call something 'definite' if people argue over its meaning, as in we do not know what it 'definitly' means because church 'a' thinks this and church 'b' thinks this.

"I don't think you have or are able to come up with such a plan that whosoever believes into Christ may enjoy Christ's salvation. At any rate we know He died for all. I don't know that you have or even could make such a sacrifice for all mankind. And you are not qualified to do so, being yourself sinful and in need of reconciliation to God."

im not sure what you were replying to, it doesnt seem to respond to anything i have written. as a stand alone statement, i have no desire to help people enjoy christ salvation, christs death on the cross makes no logical sense. a god with infinite could resolve the situation anyway. creating an arbitrary disgustingly violent construct in which nothing really happens other than physical pain is a bizarre.
yes, you will never know my mettle, maybe one day ill have to save the world in bruce willis type way, i may bottle it, but if my kids are alive i would doubt that very much.



"Have you spoken words like those of Jesus, which have been the comfort of millions for over 2,000 years ? If not, why should I expect that Christ needs to learn about largeness from you ? "

again, i didnt say that, you are adding meanings that are not there. i did not say christ had anything to learn about largeness from me. you were calling the concept of christianity as large. i was saying its not large in comparison to other philosophical ideologies.

"I think many have been carried away by an overestimate of their scientific knowledge. They think they must be smarter than any Creator of the universe. A curious conceit is evident as they compare themselves, say, with the writers of the New Testament."

this may be true, but only a tiny handful of athiests are scientists, 99.9% are just average people.



"To some it is. More and more we see conventions for mutual support and militant propogation of Atheist ideas. We have a free country here in the US. And they have the right to marshal their forces. And they use this right."

the overwhelming majority are just normal people who choose not to believe because they prefer logic.



"We have to be realistic. I hate some of the things which people do under the banner of God and the Bible. I know the feeling."

im not really having a go at the major horrors of christianity. its more of the little everyday things that christians do not question or just accept that seem morally dubious to me that i find interesting.


"I ask plenty of questions. How could a Bible student like me not ask many questions. I have some good ones. "


you say you ask plenty of questions, yet if you get to a difficult one that is hard to answer or seem to throw god in a bad light you just accept that god will have the perfect answer. so what is the point in asking questions if in your mind it doesnt matter if there is an answer or not. why bother? if it doesnt frustrate you that there are so many unanswered important questions.
ive asked before - how can people be happy in heaven when there will be other people suffering in hell? - i think a very good question about the morality of heaven and human nature. the only responses from christians is along the - oh god will have a solution dont worry - if i was a christian i would demand an answer to this question.



"The epistles of Paul show that the early church had differences of opinions on various matters. These differences did not render the Gospel not true."

no, but it does mean that one of the interpretations is false. therefore a whole much of people (millions in some cases) believe the wrong thing, yet they will stand there and argue it as fact. so how do you know you have the right interpretations? not the protestants, mormons, jw's, catholics and all the sub-groups of these that dont even agree with their head.

"Likewise, there are several different philosophical approaches to Atheism. They are neither monolithic, except in their unbelief in God."

the difference is that an atheist will generally accept there is a possibility of most things, where a christian will only accept the possibility of one thing. i dont believe in god, my head and my heart put it down as an unlikely explanation of the universe (especially the christian god as he is so limited and shows the behavior of the zeitgeist)

Originally posted by jaywill

i think you do me the disservice of presuming my intentions rather than taking my words at face value. i do not ask for historical or scientific knowledge, i like to think i take a humanist approach to my questions, i want to know answers about why things have to be the way they are according to god, what is the nature of god,

I woul ...[text shortened]... that this profound Bible is the word of God.

ill keep this one short, ive got pots to wash, cups of tea to drink and work to avoid.



" Are you being realistic here ? In one instance you complain that there are contradictions in our approaches to the teaching of the Bible. Then in the next breath you seem to suggest no one has any questions."

i meant that the bible is riddled with contradictions, although believers contradict themselves often without realizing. like the heaven argument. many people on here will tell me that god will change us in the after life so there is no pain, or sadness or negative emotions. when in a different debate suggest to others that god should have made us free of pain or sadness or negative emotions at the beginning like this, the response i got (you were one of them) was - god doesnt want us to be like robots!!!!! so i can ascertain from this that he does want us to be like robots in heaven???

"Taboo ??? The bible isn't taboo. And not all Christians on the face of the earth are represented by the Vatican. A bunch are. But you don't have to be Catholic. "


yes the bible is taboo, if you question it or suggest that it is wrong in parts, or you think god has done some bad things in the bible, you get punished for blasphemy.



" I know of no other system of invitation to know truth more representitive of God's great love for all humans than this. One possible exception, is that God has said His existence is communicated to the whole world through the things which have been made in creation"


" Don't think this is sneaky of me. Just IN CASE you are wrong and God is REAL, just in case, have yourself a time to pour out your heart and problems in the ears of God.

Look at it this way. You are in total private, it is good to do it at least once in a person's long life, and how could it hurt ?"

sorry j its not for me. i would be talking to myself, i dont have much to out pour anyway. if i did have a lot to get off my chest and i let it all out then would experience a natural high afterwards, which im sure could easily be mistaken (for those looking for something to believe in) for a spiritual experience. if god did exist i would only speak to him if he communicated through speech, rather than a series of vague feelings.

one more thing jumping back to something said on the other page.

you mentioned me being a sinner. ive been called a sinner lots on here by christians and told im off to hell.
i bet, despite me being an atheist i have led a less sinful life than the majority of christians on here. where does that leave them, does god love a christian sinner more!!!

did not deny that the christian gospel is encompasses a lot.

I mean both a lot of truth and a lot of people.

but it is not unique in this quality and as there are other philosophies and approaches to life that accept the possibility of the christian god plus all the other possibilities it makes it a lot more potent than just believing in one thing,

Here is your misunderstanding. The truth is a Person. Sure, a "thing" is limited - a philosophy with which one agrees, a set of rules, etc. But our Christ is a living Person.

He has to be exceedingly all-incompassing to be able to me our enjoyment for eternity. Paul spoke of the love of Christ in terms of them being like the dimensions of the universe.

" ... you ... may be full opf strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are and to know the knowledge surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God." (Eph. 3:18-19)

How broad is "the breadth"?
How long is "the length" ?
How high is "the height" and how deep is "the depth" ?

They are infinite. These are the limitless dimensions of the universe.
He is saying that Christ is the real universe, He and His "knowledge surpassing love".

i said you can not call something 'definite' if people argue over its meaning, as in we do not know what it 'definitly' means because church 'a' thinks this and church 'b' thinks this.

Of course divisions and different "kinds" of churches is a scandel to the Christians. Regardless this degradation is not a defeat to the Christian church. There are those who overcome the surrounding scandelous denominationalism.

And even in these things there are the definite essential truths of Christ being Son of God, living a perfect life, dying a redemptive death, rising in resurrection, coming again in glory, and imparting His saving life into His believers.

I grant you that many argue about less central matters. But don't put your hope in these arguments to completely nullify the truth of the Christian Gospel. Had they been enough to completely destroy the faith, they would have centries ago. Christ promised that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His church. He didn't say the gates of Hades would not try their best to do so.


"I don't think you have or are able to come up with such a plan that whosoever believes into Christ may enjoy Christ's salvation. At any rate we know He died for all. I don't know that you have or even could make such a sacrifice for all mankind. And you are not qualified to do so, being yourself sinful and in need of reconciliation to God."

Today, the Lord is recovering the proper unity lost in the early centries. This recovery has been proceeding throughout many centries. The reformation and recovery back to justification by faith was a move in this recovery. It did not stop there. He is still recovering at least a remnant to the normal Christian church life in oneness.

www.lordsrecovery.org

im not sure what you were replying to,

Sometimes I do indeed miss people's points. I am still learning and developing.
Just let me know, as you have. That helps.

it doesnt seem to respond to anything i have written. as a stand alone statement, i have no desire to help people enjoy christ salvation, christs death on the cross makes no logical sense. a god with infinite could resolve the situation anyway. creating an arbitrary disgustingly violent construct in which nothing really happens other than physical pain is a bizarre.

No, no, no. Many wonderful things happened on that cross. These many things only a God/Man could accomplish. No death of a regular man could accomplish these benefits.

That cross is terrifically releasing and efficacious. I was crucified with Christ. My bad habits were terminated on His cross. Satan was bruised on that cross, judged and even destroyed. My old man was crucified with Christ. What could not be refined and improved was terminated.

A redemption forever was accomplished on that cross. I was judged in Christ. Justice was imparted by God against my sins forever, on that cross. That cross was the place of the accomplishment of tremendous things.

And now all that effectiveness of Christ's death is the ingredients of His Holy Spirit. When I abide in the Holy Spirit I can surely appropriate by faith the benefits of Christ's crucifixion. Let me be practical.

If lust suddenly comes upon me to swallow me up, if my temper boils because of some offense, if anxiety tries to sweep over me, if self pity, annoyance, pride, greed, worry seek to polute my peace - I just stand by faith on the promise of the New Testament.

I pray "Lord, thankyou that I am crucified with You. I am buried with You. I am raised together with You. I apply your cross to all these troubling things."

I tell you exceeding great power flows into my being. I know that it is not of me. This is what spurs us on to believe that we are on the path of truth. Paul the Apostle and others pioneered the way before us. They experienced Christ as the indwelling life giving Spirit.

I tell you that cross of Christ is a great great liberation. It has the power to KILL OFF the germs of the fallen Adamic nature. Read tonight Romans chapter . Those are not just idle words. Paul showed us the way to abide in Christ the available and living Victor.

"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)

Those are not just idle words. YOU SNOOZE, YOU LOSE.

We apply the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection by turning to the indwelling Holy Spirit. This life is power. It is Christ who lives in us. And Christ can live in you too.

i was saying its not large in comparison to other philosophical ideologies.

Well, my experience is that nothing ever contained my WHOLE BEING as Christ's love contains my WHOLE BEING. You see a living PERSON has it over a dead system any time. Even if the system is very wise, very well thought out, very systematic, very well organized.

Christ is a living Person - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .

I remember when it dawned upon me that God was a Person. It was not a teaching that I needed. It was a living Person that I needed. A system, even a theology or philsophy may be good. But it can never be as capable as a living Person.

"I think many have been carried away by an overestimate of their scientific knowledge. They think they must be smarter than any Creator of the universe. A curious conceit is evident as they compare themselves, say, with the writers of the New Testament."

this may be true, but only a tiny handful of athiests are scientists, 99.9% are just average people.

Yes. Yes. And t hose 99.9 % need the love of Jesus. It is this LOVE of Christ that we require deep in our hearts.

I can confidently say that apart from this love of Christ you will never have real peace within. But through Christ you can be reconciled to God. And the peace of Christ which passes understanding will permeate your innermost being.

But the sinner who has not yet been reconciled to the Father, he or she cannot know real peace within.

"To some it is. More and more we see conventions for mutual support and militant propogation of Atheist ideas. We have a free country here in the US. And they have the right to marshal their forces. And they use this right."

the overwhelming majority are just normal people who choose not to believe because they prefer logic.

I have no statistics on this. But it is reliable that the NT says that the truth is in Jesus. Truth is a living Person - the Son of God.

"We have to be realistic. I hate some of the things which people do under the banner of God and the Bible. I know the feeling."

im not really having a go at the major horrors of christianity. its more of the little everyday things that christians do not question or just accept that seem morally dubious to me that i find interesting.

When I decided to become a follower of Jesus, I prayed a prayer which God was very faithful to answer. I asked God to lead me to Christians who would encourage my faith rather than discourage my faith.

I am not hunting for hypocrits. I am not searching for those who would damage my trust in Christ. God has always led me to contact Christians who encourage me to be a believer rather than discourage me to be one.

Whatever Christianity did, YOU do not have to be the same. IF you say that you are afraid to follow Jesus because you might become like the Spanish Inquisition or the Conqestadors then you are saying that you will lose all self control and be compeled to follow the worse examples of religion.

One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is "self control". And I do not shrink from following what I know to be the truth because I fear that I will follow the worst examples of relgiosity.

Besides, the horrors of Christianity are not a statement on the non-existence of God but on the depravity of sinful man. Of course men, to dignify their basest sins, will lay hold of that which is highest and most holy to do so. This happened from Genesis and on through the history of God's people on the earth. Religion opposed and executed the Son of God.

So your reasons are not quite good enough, for me to abandon the truth of Christ.

At least I know that no one is getting away with anythin...