11 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillCall it whatever you will, it has no purpose and is nothing more than spite. This makes the God you believe in in total contradiction to the words you attribute to him such as 'just', 'loving', etc. Spiteful punishment of this kind is neither just nor loving.
That is retribution according to the eternal God.
As it is ultimate so also was His redemptive act that we would be saved.
I had hoped that you would at least be able to explain what the purpose of this cruel and unusual punishment was but it turns out that you don't even understand what purpose punishment serves in man made justice systems. You are probably one of those people who believes there is some universal law of 'an eye for an eye' and that such a law is simply a brute fact, that you think everyone else believes in - when in reality no such law exists.
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11 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillthats pretty horrific stuff, your god is a barbarian. with all the understanding we now have of human behavior patterns and the reasons people become 'evil' god cannot think of a better method of dealing with these troubled people other than violence and punishment.you can't use "retribution" as a description for "eternal punishing." they are not compatible.
God has the sovereign right to inflict punishment showing His infinite displeasure. Against the transgressor refusing forgiveness extended by God, He will manifest displeasure without end. Therefore there is eternal punishment.
The unrec ...[text shortened]... ould come to Christ that we may be pardoned and sanctified.
this characterization of god is another example of him being created, these are the actions of a powerful person from hundreds of years ago, the actions of person that has no understanding psychology, they are the actions from a time when violence was the way of dealing with enemies.
a truly enlightened being would have abandoned violence because of the barbaric, base, impulsive, pointless, un-intellectual, ego-driven, terrible human emotion that it is.
controlling and stopping violence and punishment is a sign of advancement and is a major sign of how developed a person or nation has become.
its odd that the most intellectual being in the universe is still showing ancient earth behavior.
this is one of the biggest give aways of the truth behind the bible, so many of it morals and concepts reflect the zeigeist at the time it was written.
11 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillnot granted. he may have the power to do so, but not the right.you can't use "retribution" as a description for "eternal punishing." they are not compatible.
God has the sovereign right to inflict punishment showing His infinite displeasure.
retribution is defined as a just reward, or payment in kind. for example, an "eye for an eye" is retribution.
Against the transgressor refusing forgiveness extended by God, He will manifest displeasure without end. Therefore there is eternal punishment....
i realize biblegod promises to inflict eternal punishment. this is not in dispute.
The grounds of His punishing is two fold: punishment for evil acts, and punishment against evil character, as the bases of those acts.
wrong. it is punishment for the particular "sin" of rejecting the story of his coming to earth and dying for us.
both evil acts and evil characters can be saved according to christian doctrine.
1.) The judgement of God will be at last "according to works:" (Rom. 2:6; 2 Cor. 11:15; 2 tim. 4:14; Rev. 20:12,13; 22:12
not quiet clear what the judgement will be based on at last due to the contradictions in the bible, but this is not being discussed.
2.) But the judgment is also as regards the character of the wicked.
this one is also up in the air, but also irrelevant for this discussion.
The enemies of God have a vested interest in judging their penalty for opposing the eternal God, as a light thing. This is like asking a congress of theives around the world to convene and decide what the just punishment should be for stealing. Or it is like asking a world-wide congress of rapist to meet and determine what the penalty for rape should be.
this is no different than expecting your brutish god to come up with just punishment.
Those who set themselves up to oppose God cannot possibly be expected to determine what the just penalty should be for doing so.
the determination of what is just penalty is not a political matter. anybody can determine that eternal punishment for a finite crime is unjust. this is simple logic.
They have a vested interest that there be no penalty, or a light penalty
i have a vested interest in humanity. i will protest unjust punishment committed against anyone. i even have enough humanity to be disturbed by unjust punishment or treatment inflicted on any creature.
God is Sovereign. And He determines what the penalty will be. This is dreadful. And the Bible tells us that He is to be feared (Luke 11:4,5; Matt. 10:28; 5:27-30; Psalm 76:7).
again, this is not in dispute. what is in dispute is the nature of that penalty. you say it is redemption. it is not. it is cruel and unjust punishment.
In fact we are told that the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
this is false. fear is the beginning of being terrorized. there is no wisdom being in a state of fear.
Briefly here, the other side of the issue is that God has made provision for the reconciliation of His enemies through the death of His Son -
irrelevant. this is no excuse to inflict unjust punishment.
Above I showed you how the character of the sinner who refuses forgiveness remains the same. It is always forever, full of sins. This is the destiny he has chosen. And not only his deeds are judged but the perpetual evil character is too.
it is not forever, this is hogwash. according to christian doctrine any evil sinner can get to heaven if they just start to believe in christ and good people can end up in hell for not believing in christ.
a man can be a good buddhist, never harm a creature in his life, help everyone he is able to help, and according to christian doctrine, that man is going to face the full spite of biblegod. he will end up in hell and to eternal torture. this is not retribution, this is madness.
We may make some comparisons between man's laws and God's. But not in every sense can we.
we are not making a comparison between mans laws and god's. we are comparing the penalties for breaking those laws.
all civilized humans recognize that cruel and unusual punishment, including torture and humiliation are unethical and not being subject to those is a human right.
[quote] Thus the root of the lost sinner's misery is the opposition of nature between himself and God. Jehovah is holy, just, and good. The lost is unholy, unjust, selfish. Now this holy character of God abides unchangeably. So does the sinner's own character of evil. He hates God even in this world, while surrounded by so many blessings. How much more will he, when the terrors of God's indignation are assailing him! - Robert Govett
[/quote]
govett doesn't know what he's talking about.
you have not been able to demonstrate that your god is sane. he promises cruel and unusual punishment for finite acts committed on earth tallied only if the criminal in question doesn't accept his so called sacrifice to himself told about in a fable story book.
this is truly demented.
Originally posted by stellspalfieThis is jaywill using GSWILL's PC. (a relative)
thats pretty horrific stuff, your god is a barbarian. with all the understanding we now have of human behavior patterns and the reasons people become 'evil' god cannot think of a better method of dealing with these troubled people other than violence and punishment.
this characterization of god is another example of him being created, these are the act ...[text shortened]... the bible, so many of it morals and concepts reflect the zeigeist at the time it was written.
thats pretty horrific stuff
It would be far more horrific if God had not provided a redemption. And what is that redemption ? Simply to believe into Christ.
I believed into Christ and God looked upon me as if I had never sinned.
So though this final judgment is dreadful, I spend at least equal and probably much more time contemplating the gracious offer of salvation -
" That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Now that is an exceedingly gracious offer.
That is an exceedingly merciful promise which God cannot fail to fulfill.
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11 Jul 12
Originally posted by GSWILL"It would be far more horrific if God had not provided a redemption. And what is that redemption ? Simply to believe into Christ."
This is jaywill using GSWILL's PC. (a relative)
thats pretty horrific stuff
It would be far more horrific if God had not provided a redemption. And what is that redemption ? Simply to believe into Christ.
I believed into Christ and God looked upon me as if I had never sinned.
So though this final judgment is dreadful, I spend ...[text shortened]... gracious offer.
That is an exceedingly merciful promise which God cannot fail to fulfill.
do you not see how crazy this type of thinking is? how backwards?
"So though this final judgment is dreadful, I spend at least equal and probably much more time contemplating the gracious offer of salvation"
this could also be described as turning a blind eye. if you turn away from something you deem dreadful it makes you culpable. if your god is really a good, kind and just god then i think all this must be a test to see if people would be willing to turn their eyes down to an unjust and violent system. the jesus i read about as a child stood up against people suffering. maybe god is testing christians to see if they have really understood his message, maybe he wants to see you make the ultimate sacrifice and denounce his (pretend) violent ways and show support and forgiveness for your fellow humans. risking your place in heaven to speak your mind and defend the weak in gods eyes would be an admirable thing.
wouldnt it be a shock if it got to the end days and it was us people who stand by our morals and principles in the face of any power that truly understood the way. god could easily say 'why did you do nothing, when i said i was going to punish that man for eternity just because his mental state stopped him from turning to me?' - 'because you told us to' - ' then you have not understood the true value of love and forgiveness, love and forgiveness is unconditional'.
Originally posted by stellspalfie
"It would be far more horrific if God had not provided a redemption. And what is that redemption ? Simply to believe into Christ."
do you not see how crazy this type of thinking is? how backwards?
"So though this final judgment is dreadful, I spend at least equal and probably much more time contemplating the gracious offer of salvation"
this rstood the true value of love and forgiveness, love and forgiveness is unconditional'.
this could also be described as turning a blind eye. if you turn away from something you deem dreadful it makes you culpable.
The Holy Bible contains a great many other things besides this subject matter. Incensed reactions like yours tend to oversimplify the matter as if there is nothing else going on in the mind and work of God.
We are talking about the final judgment of all. A myopic vision of outrage tends to think this is the only remedy God uses.
As for culpableness, I simply have to heed the words of my Lord -
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26)
I am neither ashamed of Christ nor of His words.
if your god is really a good, kind and just god then i think all this must be a test to see if people would be willing to turn their eyes down to an unjust and violent system. the jesus i read about as a child stood up against people suffering.
That Jesus is still there. "Behold the KINDNESS and SEVERITY of God"
You should not consider that the Ultimate Being has only ONE side. It should make sense to you that the Uncreated and Eternal Being has varied sides and aspects to His being.
You call this eternal judgment horrific. I agree that it is. But what of the gift of "eternal life"? I am not deserving of such an unspeakable gift? I simply cannot understand why God would love me so much as to want to bestow upon me that I be with Him FOREVER.
If horrific is the word to discribe the final severity of God, astounding is the word to decribe His attribute of kindness. "Behold the kindness and severity of God." (Rom. 11:22)
" God, Lord Jesus, do you really want me for eternity ? "
"The gift of God is eternal life ..." (Rom. 6:23) .
maybe god is testing christians to see if they have really understood his message,
We are always on the test. Notice that the redemption is not to those who believe or not believe in HELL or the lake of fire. The redemption is to believe into Christ.
So he that is ignorant of the last judgment or even not sure what he believes concerning it is not saved because of agreement or non-disagreement. It is the believing into the living and available Jesus Christ which saves regardless.
I must go now.
11 Jul 12
Originally posted by stellspalfie
"It would be far more horrific if God had not provided a redemption. And what is that redemption ? Simply to believe into Christ."
do you not see how crazy this type of thinking is? how backwards?
"So though this final judgment is dreadful, I spend at least equal and probably much more time contemplating the gracious offer of salvation"
this ...[text shortened]... rstood the true value of love and forgiveness, love and forgiveness is unconditional'.
maybe god is testing christians to see if they have really understood his message, maybe he wants to see you make the ultimate sacrifice and denounce his (pretend) violent ways and show support and forgiveness for your fellow humans. risking your place in heaven to speak your mind and defend the weak in gods eyes would be an admirable thing.
He wants to wrought Christ into our personalities. This is the plan of God, to dispense Christ into His people that they may be mingled with God.
11 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
not granted. he may have the power to do so, but not the right.
Against the transgressor refusing forgiveness extended by God, He will manifest displeasure without end. Therefore there is eternal punishment....
i realize biblegod promises to inflict eternal punishment. this is not in dispute.
[quote] The grounds of His punishi d sacrifice to himself told about in a fable story book.
this is truly demented.
govett doesn't know what he's talking about.
No. Govett knows what he is talking about. You're the one in the dark.
I would send a person to learn something of the Bible to Robert Govett, even though he was human, and no human save Jesus is without error.
I would never send anyone to you to learn anything about Christ and God and the word of God. No one at any time would I recommend that they learn anything from you about these things.
Not yet ! Maybe never.
11 Jul 12
1 edit
I believe the Bible over human philosophy. God is Just and Righteous. Both the Old and New Testament teach this. "A God of truth without iniquity; just and right is He." (Deut 32:2)
In the chastizement and captivity of Israel God was just. Even those under His discipline declared so "Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us; for You have done right, but we have done wickedly:" (Nehmiah 9:33; Zeph. 3:5)
"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works" (Psalm 145:17)
Of all humans, I think Jesus Christ was best qualified to ascertain the character of God. He called His Father Righteous - "O Righteous Father, the world has not known You ..." (John 17:25)
"Great and marvelous are Your works Lord God Almighty; Just and true are Your ways, You King of the nations" This is uttered in the midst of the judgments of the bowls of wrath upon the rebellion of Antichrist.
As God is righteous, He hates evil. God loves the sinner but hates the evil of sinning. Sin is an abomination to God. He is the Ultimate law Giver which have righteous penalties already associated to them, and published. Because God is just and true these penalties must be carried out.
The law also had provisions for atonement - the sin offering, the peace offerning, the trespass offering, the consecration offering, the meal offering - ALL were types, foreshadows, and symbols of Jesus Christ the Redeemer. These were all pointers to the antitype of the Son of God and His eternal redemption.
"You are not a God which has plesure in wickedness; neither shall evil dwell with You. The foolish shall not stand in Your sight; YOU HATE ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. You shall destroy them that speak leasing (lying); the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man ..." (Psalm 5:4-6)
"For the wicked boasts in his hearty desire and blesses the covetous whom the Lord abhors" (Psalm 9:5) .
All the unjust are an abomination to God. And God loves righteousness supremely. On the cross of Christ God made provision that every human sinner be reconciled to God, atoned for for is or her sins. Justice fell upon His Son that it could be imputed on our behalf. If we believe, substitution takes place and God looks upon us as if we had never sinned.
VoidSpirit has done much to compare civil law to God's law. But Christ tells us that the reach of God is greater and therefore deserves the greater reverence and regard.
That's just the way it is:
"And do not fear those wo kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)
Man can get away with much regarding human government. But man cannot get away with anything to the omniscient God. So the previous verse says:
"Therefore do not fear them (persecutors of Christian disciples); for there is nothing covered which will not be revealed, and hidden which will not be made known." (v.26)
Because of His greater knowledge, He is to be regarded higher than human government.
Because of His greater power, He is to be feared above human government.
Because of His greater control He is to be trusted for salvation and preservation -
"But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows." (v.31)
He is the Creator of all life. Man is precious to Him. Yet He also is the omniscient and omnipotent King - the final Judge as well as the final Savior.
Don't listen to VoidSpirit trying to poison your heart against God.
12 Jul 12
Originally posted by GSWILLum, no. from that one brief quote, it is obviously apparent that govett is a self righteous prick.govett doesn't know what he's talking about.
No. Govett knows what he is talking about. You're the one in the dark.
I would send a person to learn something of the Bible to Robert Govett, even though he was human, and no human save Jesus is without error.
I would never send anyone to you to learn anything about Christ and God an ...[text shortened]... I recommend that they learn anything from you about these things.
Not yet ! Maybe never.
"Thus the root of the lost sinner's misery is the opposition of nature between himself and God."
what? what misery?
" Jehovah is holy, just, and good."
demonstrably false, just read the bible.
"The lost is unholy, unjust, selfish."
what? pure nonsense.
" Now this holy character of God abides unchangeably."
demonstrably false, just read the bible.
" So does the sinner's own character of evil."
unadulterated nonsense. this goes even against the entire basis of the christian doctrine.
" He hates God even in this world, while surrounded by so many blessings."
what? total bullcrap. a lot of people love god. they just happen to love the wrong god according to biblegod, and because of that...eternal torture coming right up.
" How much more will he, when the terrors of God's indignation are assailing him! - Robert Govett "
how much more nonsense does govett have to utter before you realize he doesn't know what he's talking about?
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12 Jul 12
Originally posted by GSWILLit sounds like you are willing to turn a blind eye to violence as long as there is something in it for you. doesnt sound very christian.
I believe the Bible over human philosophy. God is Just and Righteous. Both the Old and New Testament teach this. [b]"A God of truth without iniquity; just and right is He." (Deut 32:2)
In the chastizement and captivity of Israel God was just. Even those under His discipline declared so "Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us; for ...[text shortened]...
Don't listen to VoidSpirit trying to poison your heart against God.
12 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfie
it sounds like you are willing to turn a blind eye to violence as long as there is something in it for you. doesnt sound very christian.
it sounds like you are willing to turn a blind eye to violence as long as there is something in it for you. doesn't sound very christian.
That is not what it sounds like. It sounds like what happens to me personally doesn't change the nature of God one way or the other.
Fortunately, my heart was softened so that I was able to believe into Christ.
Had I not done so the truth remains the truth, God remains Gods, regardless.
"The judgment of God is according to truth ..." (Rom. 2:2)
Now, from my perspective what your reasoning sounds like is that the effect is greater than the cause. That is that the creation of God is superior in moral being the Creator. This doesn't make sense to me. I do not see how it could possibly be within the Creator to bestow what He Himself did not possess.
The effect should not be greater than the cause. And it makes no sense that our justice and righteousness must correct that of our Creator. It is more believable that God transcends us, then the other way around.
12 Jul 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritNot everyone is going to believe the Bible.
um, no. from that one brief quote, it is obviously apparent that govett is a self righteous prick.
"Thus the root of the lost sinner's misery is the opposition of nature between himself and God."
what? what misery?
" Jehovah is holy, just, and good."
demonstrably false, just read the bible.
"The lost is unholy, unjust, selfish."
what? ...[text shortened]... ett have to utter before you realize he doesn't know what he's talking about?
Some people like yourself, are simply going to consider God's word as nonsense. I won't be joining you.