13 Jul 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillSo in your interpretation, this passage
[b]=============================
agree with you on this :
>>>>You see the judgement mentioned in Matthew 25 is not the last judgement at the great white throne at the end of the millennial 1,000 years. Rather it is at the beginning of that time, after Jesus sits on the throne of His glory in the Holy Land. That is at the conclusion of the great ...[text shortened]... Matthew 25:32.
The same matter is being taught in two different ways.
"[/b]
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory ... He will sit on the throne of His glory, and all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the SHEEP from the GOATS." And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (See Matthew 25:31,33)
really means :
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory ... He will sit on the throne of His glory, and all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the SHEEP NATIONS from the GOAT NATIONS." And he shall set the sheep nations on his right hand, but the goat nations on the left. (See Matthew 25:31,32)
Is that your interpretation?
If it is, then entire nations of sheep will get life eternal and not individuals and entire nations of goats will be punished and not just individuals.
Nations are gathered before him and he will separate sheep from the goats. Its says nothing about sheep nations or goat nations.
This thing called indoctrination is truly amazing. You are adding in the word nations after sheep, when the Bible has no such term. The Bible says sheep and goats, not sheep nations and goat nations.
13 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999=================================
So in your interpretation, this passage
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory ... He will sit on the throne of His glory, and all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the SHEEP from the GOATS." And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (Se Bible has no such term. The Bible says sheep and goats, not sheep nations and goat nations.
This thing called indoctrination is truly amazing. You are adding in the word nations after sheep, when the Bible has no such term. The Bible says sheep and goats, not sheep nations and goat nations.
=====================================
I see your point now. I did not before. Its a very good point.
Ie. Does this mean that an entire nation all shares in a kind of national judgment as a whole, one way or another, in terms of perdition or inheriting the kingdom?
I don't think this is what I understood from my convincing sources. But I will re-examine the matter before I reply to this.
Nations though is the same word there as gentiles elsewhere in the New Testament. So strictly speaking it is the Gentiles who are reparated into sheep and goats.
Perhaps I should have used the phrase "sheep Gentiles" or "goat Gentiles".
Thanks. I'll be back.
13 Jul 09
2 edits
Before I give Rajk999 a reply on his objection there two preliminary remarks - a clarification and a retraction.
I have made a mistake concerning Matthew 25:31-46. I said that the "goat nations" or "goat Gentiles" or simply goats, were the nations who followed Antichrist.
I retract that. These nations left alive followed neither Christ nor Antichrist. But they are judged according not to the law of Moses nor according to faith in Christ but according to works rendered upon the Lord's brothers.
I still have not yet addressed the concept of "national" judgment here, whether that is what I believe or not.
13 Jul 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999==============================
So in your interpretation, this passage
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory ... He will sit on the throne of His glory, and all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the SHEEP from the GOATS." And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (Se Bible has no such term. The Bible says sheep and goats, not sheep nations and goat nations.
If it is, then entire nations of sheep will get life eternal and not individuals and entire nations of goats will be punished and not just individuals.
Nations are gathered before him and he will separate sheep from the goats. Its says nothing about sheep nations or goat nations.
This thing called indoctrination is truly amazing. You are adding in the word nations after sheep, when the Bible has no such term. The Bible says sheep and goats, not sheep nations and goat nations.
=============================================
I do not mean that this is necessarily a determination upon entire nations. Ie. - all nationals of one country perish in perdition and all nationals of another country inherit the kingdom of the millennium.
The sheep and the goats are of the nations, ie. of the Gentiles as the same English word in v.32 in the RcV is translated Gentiles in the 1901 American Standard in Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18; and 20:19,25.
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by jaywillTherefore there is no such thing as a sheep nation or a goat nation.
[b]==============================
If it is, then entire nations of sheep will get life eternal and not individuals and entire nations of goats will be punished and not just individuals.
Nations are gathered before him and he will separate sheep from the goats. Its says nothing about sheep nations or goat nations.
This thing called indoctrinatio ...[text shortened]... ]Gentiles in the 1901 American Standard in Matthew 4:15; 6:32; 10:5,18; 12:18; and 20:19,25.[/b]
They are just nations or gentiles who are on earth just before the milennium.
The sheep are righteous individuals.
The goats are unworthy individuals.
13 Jul 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Individuals from the Gentiles are judged here, I think.
Therefore there is no such thing as a sheep nation or a goat nation.
They are just nations or gentiles who are on earth just before the milennium.
The sheep are righteous individuals.
The goats are unworthy individuals.
The phrase "sheep nation" or "goat nation" is misleading.
I think I wrote "sheep nations" or "goat nations".
It is misleading. I don't think I will put it that way if it leads to misunderstanding.
I did not change the TEXT so as to read:
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory ... He will sit on the throne of His glory, and all the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the SHEEP NATIONS from the GOAT NATIONS." And he shall set the sheep nations on his right hand, but the goat nations on the left. (See Matthew 25:31,32)
But I did utilize a phrase in my expounding.
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by jaywillWhere did you get the idea to use the term 'sheep nations'.
Individuals from the Gentiles are judged here, I think.
The phrase "sheep nation" or "goat nation" is misleading.
I think I wrote "sheep nations" or "goat nations".
It is misleading. I don't think I will put it that way if it leads to misunderstanding.
I did not change the [b]TEXT so as to read:
"But when the Son of Man comes in His ...[text shortened]... on the left. (See Matthew 25:31,32)
But I did utilize a phrase in my expounding.[/b]
Its not in the Bible. Its the first time I heard it.
Which religious group use that term?
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by galveston75They the JW's knock on my door 😉 I don't knock on the kingdom hall down the street's door. They leave their literature on my porch which I read for fun. It looks like propaganda everyones smiling and all. Anyway I'm always friendly when I open the door. I'm not persecuting them at all. I discuss with them the scriptures. We go around in circles but to no avail either way. The Watch tower society is one of the easy to bring down if you sincerely look at the history. There are court records. Archives that can be looked at. predictions made but never coming to pass. This is all fraudulent to say the least. Doctrines made than reversed and so forth. Sounds confusing to me. I would I want to be a part of that? The founder was all about Money I think.
Keep bringing it..we love it all. You and others like you only confirm this scripture more. Thank you so much!!! Matt 24:9 ( Who of you can apply this to yourself?.....None!!!!)
Manny
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by Rajk999Suppose I made it up on the fly?
Where did you get the idea to use the term 'sheep nations'.
Its not in the Bible. Its the first time I heard it.
Which religious group use that term?
Are you on a witch hunt? Need someone to throw stones at?
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by jaywillNope. If its on some website I wont mind reading it.
Suppose I made it up on the fly?
Are you on a witch hunt? Need someone to throw stones at?
I doubt you made that up. It must be taught by some churches.
I dont need anyone to throw stones at as long a Robbie and Galveston stick around .. they provide enough targets. That JW doctrine is so screwed up and full of garbage its amazing.
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by menace71Type in 'miracle wheat' in Google and check out an interesting story on Charles Russell. Apparently he was selling ordinary wheat as miracle wheat at some exhorbitant price.
They the JW's knock on my door 😉 I don't knock on the kingdom hall down the street's door. They leave their literature on my porch which I read for fun. It looks like propaganda everyones smiling and all. Anyway I'm always friendly when I open the door. I'm not persecuting them at all. I discuss with them the scriptures. We go around in circles but to no a ...[text shortened]... me. I would I want to be a part of that? The founder was all about Money I think.
Manny
13 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999yeah yeah, if it was left up to plastic christians like you, no one would ever here the good news, we could all just sit on our butts and the stones would cry out. yep Mr. Big the plastic Christian who has never taught nor preached to anyone in his life, talks the talk, but he cannot walk the walk! how brave he feels behind the comfort of his personal computer, because thats about as far as he is willing to go, plastic indeed! boing boing!
Nope. If its on some website I wont mind reading it.
I doubt you made that up. It must be taught by some churches.
I dont need anyone to throw stones at as long a Robbie and Galveston stick around .. they provide enough targets. That JW doctrine is so screwed up and full of garbage its amazing.
13 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Have you ever considered the wisdom from above and the wisdom that is earthy?
Nope. If its on some website I wont mind reading it.
I doubt you made that up. It must be taught by some churches.
I dont need anyone to throw stones at as long a Robbie and Galveston stick around .. they provide enough targets. That JW doctrine is so screwed up and full of garbage its amazing.
"But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which descends from above, but is earthy, soulish, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition are, there disorder and every worthless practice are. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, forbearing, compliant, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." (James 3:14-18)
I try to do some periodic praying when I write here. I check the spirit with which I write. I consider the tone and taste of my words. Are they peacable or do they stir up worthless practices of strife. I think there is a way to discuss our beliefs with out sounding soulish, earthy, and eager to injure.
I think one can alienate other participants and kind "poison the well" by the way one disgrees with others.
I want to always practice praying over what I write, how you put it, and praying for the readers. I want to minister Christ Himself as Spirit and life through my spirit.
13 Jul 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI discuss your doctrine.
yeah yeah, if it was left up to plastic christians like you, no one would ever here the good news, we could all just sit on our butts and the stones would cry out. yep Mr. Big the plastic Christian who has never taught nor preached to anyone in his life, talks the talk, but he cannot walk the walk! how brave he feels behind the comfort of his personal computer, because thats about as far as he is willing to go, plastic indeed! boing boing!
I discuss the JWs doctrine.
I discuss Jaywill's or any other doctrine.
I never ask you, neither am I interested in, what you do with your personal life. Thats your business.
The fact that you continually make remarks about my life, of which you know nothing shows how stupid you really are.