27 May 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderTheir "interpretations" of what is going to happen [which are predictions/warnings about what will occur in the future - end of the world as we know it etc. etc. - so they are prophecies in every normal sense of the word - it is your prerogative to apply, like them, a bit of hair-splitting/sophistry, I suppose] are wrong time and time and time again.
The JWs believe there is a prophecy in the Bible. Their religion demands that they accept the truth of that prophecy. That prophecy, however, requires interpretation as it is far from clear.
And yet they continually cite their own unique ability to understand and interpret the bible, to the extent that they condemn and pour self-righteous scorn upon fellow Christians over and over again, ad nauseam. They claim the that the bible is "self-interpreting" and it's truths are "self-evident" and yet their attempted "prophecies" are wrong over and over. Can you, indeed, recall a major one that was right? Are they claiming the prophecy in the OP is right or wrong?
You may argue that there is no meaningful difference between a formal prophecy and a firmly stated belief in the interpretation of that prophecy, but I think there is a distinction.
I disagree with you. I think the purpose of such a supposed 'distinction' is to save these producers of pompous, often misanthropic religionist pronouncements from having to take any genuine responsibility for the abstruse hokum that they come up with, and which they use to browbeat others as they puff themselves up in their ludicrous version of 'Them and Us'. That's my take on it.
27 May 12
Originally posted by FMFLOL, thats bitter, please visit boohoo.com and get your bad hairdo day sorted!
Their "interpretations" of what is going to happen [which are predictions/warnings about what will occur in the future - end of the world as we know it etc. etc. - so they are prophecies in every normal sense of the word - it is your prerogative to apply, like them, a bit of hair-splitting/sophistry, I suppose] are wrong time and time and time again.
And yet ...[text shortened]... f themselves up in their ludicrous version of 'Them and Us'. That's my take on it.
27 May 12
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Originally posted by FMFno i know what is being said, I just think that a new style of hairdo might make you feel
You're dodging what is being said, as you so often do.
better. I am satisfied with everything that I have stated, i have provided references
detailing our stance which any reasonable person could evaluate, I have been both
explicit, transparent and lucid. I am capable of rational thought. We have originated
no prophecy, our interpretations are not inspired, we have never claimed to be gifted
with prophecy, we have never claimed to be infallible, we have never claimed that our
interpretations are inspired. These truths are incontrovertibly backed up with excerpts
taken from our very own journals, you of course deal in mere opinion, so good for you,
i hope you get what you came for.
27 May 12
Originally posted by FMFVery well said.
Their "interpretations" of what is going to happen [which are predictions/warnings about what will occur in the future - end of the world as we know it etc. etc. - so they are prophecies in every normal sense of the word - it is your prerogative to apply, like them, a bit of hair-splitting/sophistry, I suppose] are wrong time and time and time again.
And yet ...[text shortened]... f themselves up in their ludicrous version of 'Them and Us'. That's my take on it.
27 May 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, the predictions that are made in your organisation's magazines are mere opinions also. And so often wrong too. What I "came for" on these two threads is some insight into why you said galveston75 would retract any claim he might have 'mistakenly' made about JW printed material being "inspired", but are now no longer suggesting he retract it even though you have read what he said.
you of course deal in mere opinion, so good, i hope
you get what you came for.
27 May 12
Originally posted by FMFthey are interpretations of Biblical prophecy and form a very small percentage of what
Well, the predictions that are made in your organisation's magazines are mere opinions also. And so often wrong too. What I "came for" on these two threads is some insight into why you said galveston75 would retract any claim he might have 'mistakenly' made about JW printed material being "inspired", but are now no longer suggesting he retract it even though you have read what he said.
we actually print. What the Gman states is fine with me, I have no issues with what he
states, I am not interested in petty squabbling, i know what our stance is and what we
have claimed or not claimed.
27 May 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobiegalveston75 claims the The Watchtower is divinely inspired. You claim it is not. This difference strikes to the very heart of what you claim your organization's stance is. It strikes to the very heart of what has been discussed across these two threads and many of the claims you have made. I don't know how many times you have used the term "petty squabbling", but it certainly does not apply to questioning galveston75's claims about God's direct intervention in producing JW bible aids and magazines. An 'embarrassingly fundamental discrepancy', perhaps; "petty squabbling", I don't think so.
What the Gman states is fine with me, I have no issues with what he
states, I am not interested in petty squabbling....
27 May 12
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Originally posted by FMFIn Macbeth, the witches make various prophecies that Macbeth interprets, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. When he states an incorrect interpretation, I do not believe he is making an incorrect prophecy distinct from that of the witches.
Their "interpretations" of what is going to happen [which are predictions/warnings about what will occur in the future - end of the world as we know it etc. etc. - so they are prophecies in every normal sense of the word - it is your prerogative to apply, like them, a bit of hair-splitting/sophistry, I suppose] are wrong time and time and time again.
And yet f themselves up in their ludicrous version of 'Them and Us'. That's my take on it.
The other point is that the error in the OP is the reference to the time line, which is relatively small in importance by comparison with the prediction of the last days and what it involves.
I believe that Greece will exit the Euro within two months. If Germany bails them out once more, and they exit in 6 months, you could argue that I know nothing about economics and finance. I, on the other hand, would say I got the important bits spot on.
If the last days transpire as the JWs predict, whether it happens now, in 10 years or 100 will not seem such a major point of criticism.
But I do agree that JWs should present their belief in the accuracy of their Biblical interpretation in less dogmatic terms. Indeed, I have criticised them for this myself.
27 May 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderI should, of course, have said "as the JWs say the Bible predicts". Can't edit on IPhone.
In Macbeth, the witches make various prophecies that Macbeth interprets, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. When he states an incorrect interpretation, I do not believe he is making an incorrect prophecy distinct from that of the witches.
The other point is that the error in the OP is the reference to the time line, which is relatively sma ...[text shortened]... Biblical interpretation in less dogmatic terms. Indeed, I have criticised them for this myself.
I am clearly not infallible.
27 May 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderBy what authority do you take it upon yourself [a self-confessed ignoramus when it comes to Biblical pronouncements] to decide that making prophesies about Biblical events, " ..whether it happens now, in 10 years or 100 will not seem such a major point of criticism. .."
In Macbeth, the witches make various prophecies that Macbeth interprets, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. When he states an incorrect interpretation, I do not believe he is making an incorrect prophecy distinct from that of the witches.
The other point is that the error in the OP is the reference to the time line, which is relatively sma ...[text shortened]... Biblical interpretation in less dogmatic terms. Indeed, I have criticised them for this myself.
Making false prophesies is a very serious matter in the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 13, a false prophet who advises people to worship another God is to be put to death. Christ said many times, to have nothing to do with false prophets. The reason why we should stay away from them is that they cannot be from God if their prophesies are false.
People who are guided by God [like they constantly claim] CANNOT MAKE THOSE KINDS OF MISTAKES.
27 May 12
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Originally posted by Rajk999Because I am arguing that they have not made a prophecy. Its all there if you choose to read it. The date line is the JW interpretation of what they have read in the Bible.
By what authority do you take it upon yourself [a self-confessed ignoramus when it comes to Biblical pronouncements] to decide that making prophesies about Biblical events, " ..whether it happens now, in 10 years or 100 will not seem such a major point of criticism. .."
Making false prophesies is a very serious matter in the Bible.
In Deuterono ...[text shortened]... People who are guided by God [like they constantly claim] CANNOT MAKE THOSE KINDS OF MISTAKES.
If your God thinks someone who errs in the interpretation of the Bible should be put to death, then it ain't much of a God.
But then he seemed quite happy to put people to death for collecting sticks on a Sabbath, so maybe this is just what God is like.
It would help to explain why you act like you do.
27 May 12
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderAre you able to see further than your nose? Can you figure out the problems associated with false prophesies?
Because I am arguing that they have not made a prophecy. Its all there if you choose to read it. The date line is the JW interpretation of what they have read in the Bible.
If your God thinks someone who errs in the interpretation of the Bible should be put to death, then it ain't much of a God.
But then he seemed quite happy to put people to d ...[text shortened]... h, so maybe this is just what God is like.
It would help to explain why you act like you do.
The Bible says a, b and c will happen. Someone comes along and says a, b, c and d will happen in 1914, and further claim that they are guided by God, Christ and the Angels, and all their writing came from God. That is a separate prophecy from the one written in the Bible .. YES simply because it contains a date. And worst of all .. they claim guidance from God.
So despite their claiming otherwise, they are in fact prophesying in the name of God .. and doing so falsely to boot.
If you want to make judgements about if God is just or not thats your business. The Bible is crystal clear on falsely prophesying.
27 May 12
Originally posted by Rank outsiderIf they were in fact "interpretations" then members of the JW organisation could interpret them for themselves and there would be debate and discussion. But these predictions are made by a massive worldwide organisation, distributed to every member in every meeting, everywhere.
In Macbeth, the witches make various prophecies that Macbeth interprets, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly. When he states an incorrect interpretation, I do not believe he is making an incorrect prophecy distinct from that of the witches.
The predictions are internalized, memorized, propagated [just as bible texts are], and dissent or disagreement or unauthorised interpretations are met with demands for obedience, repentance, exclusion, possible disfellowship, even psychological punishments like shunning, and then being denounced as mentally diseased or whatever else the leadership deems necessary to guard against independent "interpretation".
Calling them "interpretations" comes across like a bit of newspeak vocabulary. They are specific predictions about the future handed down by a huge corporation claiming to have a unique relationship with God and claiming to have a Christianity-defining ability to make pronouncements on the meaning of the bible, while it demands complete acceptance and conformity from its membership and punishes and smears and even expels those who disobey or demur.
The members are not permitted to engage in interpretation or debate about the meaning of these corporate prophecies; they have to accept them in full, as delivered... well, they have to accept them in full, as delivered at least UNTIL they prove to be false or mistaken, at which time a new prophesy is handed down. As I suggested before, it is your prerogative to apply whatever benign spin on all this that you want.
27 May 12
Originally posted by Rajk999Do you believe that false prophets should be put to death?
Are you able to see further than your nose? Can you figure out the problems associated with false prophesies?
The Bible says a, b and c will happen. Someone comes along and says a, b, c [b]and d will happen in 1914, and further claim that they are guided by God, Christ and the Angels, and all their writing came from God. That is a separate prophecy ...[text shortened]... ut if God is just or not thats your business. The Bible is crystal clear on falsely prophesying.[/b]
Are the writers of Awake false prophets?