@kellyjay saidTruth, in and of itself, has no intrinsic value. There are infinitudes of truths about stars in distant galaxies, and distant pasts before the Earth existed and distant futures after which our star will have expired, which we will never know, and they make no difference to life on Earth, one way or another. Wherefore, choose your truths wisely.
If what we believe in isn't true, if what we think is factual isn't, if we are molding our lives around something that isn't true, or denying something is, our lives are not based upon the truth but falsehoods; this leads to delusional thinking.
Thoughts!
People believed for thousands of years that the Earth was an immovable pancake at the center of the universe. This belief was false. Yet people still lived full and meaningful lives and managed to discover and inhabit every habitable place on Earth and flourish.
The obvious conclusion is that truth is not necessary for survival or flourishing. Wherefore, seeking survival and flourishing. Truth is merely the menu, not the meal. So long as you've got the meal, you don't need a menu.
However, outright lies are something inimical to survival and flourishing. For example, 'the election was stolen' -- this is an outright lie which leads to division and the opposite of flourishing.
Take home lesson: truth and falsehood is a false dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Some falsehoods matter and others don't. Wherefore, choose your falsehoods wisely.
30 Mar 22
@moonbus saidTruth has value, without it any lie will do. Truth is also very exclusive since something either is or not. Not every truth that there is matters to me directly; however, since truth doesn’t conflict with itself knowing as much as we can keeps us from error. Unless going back to my other thread where one may want happiness over truth.
Truth, in and of itself, has no intrinsic value. There are infinitudes of truths about stars in distant galaxies, and distant pasts before the Earth existed and distant futures after which our star will have expired, which we will never know, and they make no difference to life on Earth, one way or another. Wherefore, choose your truths wisely.
People believed for thousand ...[text shortened]... e shades of gray. Some falsehoods matter and others don't. Wherefore, choose your falsehoods wisely.
Not sure how one could make a determination on what is important without a grasp of all the truth that matters.
30 Mar 22
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@kellyjay saidYou comprehensively misconstrue almost everything I post, although I expressed myself quite clearly. You contend that without truth, any lie will do. This is jumping to an absurd conclusion which does not follow from what I wrote. I explicitly stated that some falsehoods matter and others do not. Not any one will do. Moreover, falsehoods are not the same as lies; you conflate them.
Truth has value, without it any lie will do. Truth is also very exclusive since something either is or not. Not every truth that there is matters to me directly; however, since truth doesn’t conflict with itself knowing as much as we can keeps us from error. Unless going back to my other thread where one may want happiness over truth.
Not sure how one could make a determination on what is important without a grasp of all the truth that matters.
Furthermore, not every proposition has a truth-value, some are neither true nor false. Yet we live by them. For example, "all men are created equal." This is demonstratively false; they are quite obviously not equal. Yet we endeavor to treat them as if they were, for legal purposes. This is a falsehood we live by. All men are not created equal; some are created handicapped, but we shall not permit them to be disparaged on that account.
You inadvertently confirm my point, that what matters is what matters, not truth as such. Wherefore, find out what matters. And it may be a falsehood, or neither true nor false (e.g., all men are created equal). How to determine what matters is pretty straightforward: that which facilitates survival and flourishing is what matters; that which is inimical to survival or flourishing also matters but in the other direction. That which neither hinders nor facilitates survival or flourishing is superfluous.
30 Mar 22
@moonbus saidA fine post, and true, I think. Despite being born 'a Christian' I've never since independent thought kicked in latched on to the idea of a divine creator, or nailed my spiritual underpants to the mast of any particular religion or creed, each as far as I'm concerned being of no lesser or greater value or having more or less credibility than any other. I can be equally 'moved' in the spiritual sense, by being in St Paul's Cathedral or the Blue Mosque, or by simple offerings left around the place in Hindu cultures. It's all a manifestation of humankind's desire to see above and beyond itself, and hope for something better to come, and it's all fine, but I'm not a part of it.
Truth, in and of itself, has no intrinsic value. There are infinitudes of truths about stars in distant galaxies, and distant pasts before the Earth existed and distant futures after which our star will have expired, which we will never know, and they make no difference to life on Earth, one way or another. Wherefore, choose your truths wisely.
People believed for thousand ...[text shortened]... e shades of gray. Some falsehoods matter and others don't. Wherefore, choose your falsehoods wisely.
What salts my chips is the thought that we are just the latest in a long line of hominid species to have walked the earth, and everything which came before us, and will come after us when the next asteroid hits, or the really nasty virus turns up. For me, (and I'm not a scientist) science is a quest for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that is and will probably always be work in progress, but it's an endlessly fascinating journey.
30 Mar 22
@Indonesia-Phil
Interesting reply. Much food for thought.
There is a fundamental difference between scientific truths and religious 'truth'. Scientific truths are inherently revisable, pending evidence which we may discover later. Religious 'truths' are commonly held to come from the past and to be inherently nonrevisable. Yet we do revise them, time and again, in light of discoveries since the initial revelation. So the defenders of religious 'truth' constantly find themselves inventing tortuous re-interpretations to try to rationalize things which were once held to be true but are patently not so. They twist and turn and dodge when confronted with the fact that there was no flood which eliminated all life save what one man and his family managed to get onto a boat, or that the Earth and the rest of the stars and galaxies were not created within a few hours of each other.
30 Mar 22
@kellyjay saidDelusional thinking is different from merely being wrong about something. "Delusional" thinking involves beliefs that are irrational and unrealistic.
Didn’t question the standard you made in your last, I simply highlighted none of us are immune. Refusing to scrutinize our foundational beliefs could blind us.
Everyone is wrong sometimes, but delusional? That's a different matter.
30 Mar 22
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@vivify saidDelusional also implies a systematic error. It is simply false to suppose that there is an assassin behind the next tree waiting to kill you. It is delusional to think the assassin moved to another tree when you are shown that there was no one behind the first tree.
Delusional thinking is different from merely being wrong about something. "Delusional" thinking involves beliefs that are irrational and unrealistic.
Everyone is wrong sometimes, but delusional? That's a different matter.
31 Mar 22
@kellyjay saidYour religious "truth" and your adamant and repeated claims that it is "the truth" and that it is "objective" and "absolute" IS just "your version of it" and a set of highly subjective personal opinions about reality. Dismissing our "historical discussions" is not going to alter this.
Read the OP it is not about what I think is true but what is! Our historical discussions are just that, discussions in the past. What this is about is truth, not my or your version of it. Would our previous discussions alter reality, no they would not.
31 Mar 22
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@moonbus saidA lie is a deliberate attempt to hide the truth with deception. I believe every lie we unknowingly accept diminishes us; big or minor ones matter. The effects of the falsehoods compound their impact throughout our lives. Still, accepting something as accurate and true that is a belief, that is coloring something in ways it should not be, that too can be deliberate, which could make one believe in something that isn't true and spread that to others.
You comprehensively misconstrue almost everything I post, although I expressed myself quite clearly. You contend that without truth, any lie will do. This is jumping to an absurd conclusion which does not follow from what I wrote. I explicitly stated that some falsehoods matter and others do not. Not any one will do. Moreover, falsehoods are not the same as lies; you c ...[text shortened]... other direction. That which neither hinders nor facilitates survival or flourishing is superfluous.
31 Mar 22
@fmf saidYou spend a lot of time talking about me instead of the subject.
Your religious "truth" and your adamant and repeated claims that it is "the truth" and that it is "objective" and "absolute" IS just "your version of it" and a set of highly subjective personal opinions about reality. Dismissing our "historical discussions" is not going to alter this.
31 Mar 22
@kellyjay saidThe capital city of Indonesia, at the moment anyway, is Jakarta. It would be "delusional thinking" if someone believed the capital was Madrid and went there in the hope of meeting the Indonesian president at his residence. Is this the kind of "truth" you want to discuss: 'The capital city of Indonesia is Jakarta'?
Read the OP it is not about what I think is true but what is!
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31 Mar 22
@kellyjay saidThe best mass example of this for me are Trump supporters believing the lie that the election was rigged and deluding themselves into thinking that Trump is still President and that he had nothing to do with the attack on the Capitol which was just a peaceful freedom protest.
If what we believe in isn't true, if what we think is factual isn't, if we are molding our lives around something that isn't true, or denying something is, our lives are not based upon the truth but falsehoods; this leads to delusional thinking.
Thoughts!