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25 Nov 12
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars"
You are still mistaken. There will be a new heaven and earth created where there will be no graves, death, or hell. But the second death, the place of eternal fire, must last forever and ever and can not be in the new heaven and earth. So the place for death and hell that we have in this world must be removed to the place of the second death.
[b]"Then ...[text shortened]... ,4,7-8 NASB)
So we see death is not annihilated, but moved to the place of the second death.
sorcerers!?!?!?!? wtf!!!
25 Nov 12
There is a rational argument for the annihilation concept and it can be argued from or with scripture. The JW's are not the only group that hold to this concept either. I'm not saying I believe it 100% but I have an open mind to look at it. Hypothetical: So you make it into bliss or heaven or paradise earth(whatever label we chose) but yet you know you have loved ones somewhere in a place of eternal torment ? How can you be at peace and perfect worship of God ? I'm not trying to question the righteousness of God but I'm looking at his mercy in this case. I can accept that if God puts anyone in this place of eternal torment then God being the supreme being can do that. I know the orthodox side of the argument already but I've always been troubled by eternal hell and if it not be so what a torment to the minds of men ?
Manny
25 Nov 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsYes, eternal means forever and ever. So, in this meaning, eternal fire means fire that burns forever. It does not mean those thrown into it burn forever. But this special lake does in fact kill their souls. "This is the second death."
This place of eternal fire seems to me to be the same as the lake of fire. Certainly Jesus means eternal to be forever and ever. So are you going to argue that our eternal life will not last forever and ever? If not, then why do you argue that the punishment of weeping and gnashing of teeth does not last forever and ever.
The Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet are special examples. I do not know why their souls do not die in the lake of fire. Maybe they have no souls. But believe one thing. They are being tormented relentlessly already by their permanent, or eternal, separation from God.
No, I will not argue that eternal life does not last forever and ever. But it must end sometime for a few of them. Satan will be bound up 1000 years and then loosed again for a short time. Why? To test these souls again. Those who fall this time will suffer the soul death in the lake of fire. So is their "eternal life" truly eternal? For some, it doesn't sound like it is.
And no, the weeping and gnashing of teeth will not last forever. They have been judged, and their time is short. That they have failed and will now suffer permanent, or eternal, separation from God and with the knowledge that they could have avoided it, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth until those voices are silenced forever with "the second death". How could true Christians celebrate gaining eternal life while knowing their beloved relatives are suffering "forever and ever"? Do you just want to gloat over those who have lost everything? This is why I say that this concept of "eternal punishment by being tormented day and night forever and ever" is not Christian nor Godly.
What is permanent and eternal is their separation from God, their exclusion from the Kingdom of God, and not their punishment. Once they die the "second death", they can't come back. It is indeed eternal for them.
25 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsBut if those souls who are thrown into the lake of fire are annihilated, suffering the second death, then afterwards death can indeed be thrown into the lake of fire and eliminated, since there is no further use for it.
You are still mistaken. There will be a new heaven and earth created where there will be no graves, death, or hell. But the second death, the place of eternal fire, must last forever and ever and can not be in the new heaven and earth. So the place for death and hell that we have in this world must be removed to the place of the second death.
[b]"Then ...[text shortened]... -8 NASB)
So we see death is not annihilated, but moved to the place of the second death.[/b]
25 Nov 12
Originally posted by sonhouseOf course it bothers me. Just as Sharia law causes Muslim men to kill their own daughters for "dishonoring their families".
Suzianne, doesn't it bother you in the least that women are put on a lower plane than men in these religions, what part of Leviticus 27 don't you understand?
You constantly spout Leviticus in your arguments, but the fact remains that the Mosaic law in the OT really has no meaning for Christians.
The Biblical basis for treating women as "second-class citizens" harkens back to Genesis 3:16, "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." This is meant as punishment for bringing the fruit of the tree of life, which was forbidden, back to Adam to partake of.
Notice that it says "thy husband shall rule over thee". Not your congressman, or your boss, or your president or your king, or whatever. Your husband. That's ALL. Maybe that's why I never married. Hmmmmm.
My point is that the rest is simply evil men trying to control women. You're right. We still have a "glass ceiling" in this country, even now. All the laws ever created not allowing women equal treatment with men are evil, yes. But they don't stem from the Bible. Maybe evil men use the Bible as their reason to subjugate women, but that's because they're evil, not because the Bible commands it. God certainly doesn't command it.
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25 Nov 12
Originally posted by Suzianne"You constantly spout Leviticus in your arguments, but the fact remains that the Mosaic law in the OT really has no meaning for Christians."
Of course it bothers me. Just as Sharia law causes Muslim men to kill their own daughters for "dishonoring their families".
You constantly spout Leviticus in your arguments, but the fact remains that the Mosaic law in the OT really has no meaning for Christians.
The Biblical basis for treating women as "second-class citizens" harkens back to Genesis ...[text shortened]... 're evil, not because the Bible commands it. God certainly doesn't command it.
what is the purpose or meaning of the old testament. do you still believe it is the words of god?
25 Nov 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieThe meaning for the OT for Christians is as a history of the Israelites, with all the lessons those stories convey. There is also a good deal of prophecy and other lessons contained therein, and we are taught what love is about in Corinthians, for example. The OT merely sets the stage for the events in the NT, and it shows exactly how those events came to pass, by looking at the history of the people. The full story put forth in the NT is fully revealed and fleshed out with the backstory provided in the OT.
[b]"You constantly spout Leviticus in your arguments, but the fact remains that the Mosaic law in the OT really has no meaning for Christians."
what is the purpose or meaning of the old testament. do you still believe it is the words of god?[/b]
And yes, of course it is the Word of God. Maybe not the exact "words of God", for if they were His exact words, it would be a little more exact and probably not as confusing in parts, but it is the Word of God, meaning His intent and purpose is there.
Edit: Okay, before I'm called out on it, Corinthians is in the NT. Sue me. 🙂
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25 Nov 12
Originally posted by Suziannewhats your opinion of the mosaic law in relation to god. are they his laws?
The meaning for the OT for Christians is as a history of the Israelites, with all the lessons those stories convey. There is also a good deal of prophecy and other lessons contained therein, and we are taught what love is about in Corinthians, for example. The OT merely sets the stage for the events in the NT, and it shows exactly how those events came to ...[text shortened]... is there.
Edit: Okay, before I'm called out on it, Corinthians is in the NT. Sue me. 🙂
25 Nov 12
Originally posted by menace71I believe the lenght of time of punishment or how it is done is one of those
There is a rational argument for the annihilation concept and it can be argued from or with scripture. The JW's are not the only group that hold to this concept either. I'm not saying I believe it 100% but I have an open mind to look at it. Hypothetical: So you make it into bliss or heaven or paradise earth(whatever label we chose) but yet you know you have ...[text shortened]... troubled by eternal hell and if it not be so what a torment to the minds of men ?
Manny
debates like the "rapture", not one I care about, but do have an opinion upon;
because, no matter what I believe the truth will trump it in the end. The reason
I believe it is possible that the punishment could be forever is due to the grace
that God gives, since His mercy and grace forgives us completely forever, why
would His wrath be any less painful on the flip side of that coin? As I said it
really isn't a topic I care to debate, because no matter how you fall out in your
opinion, you could be wrong and reality will win out. It is enough to know that
there is a punishment and Jesus gave His life for us so we could come to God
and miss it.
Kelly
25 Nov 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieWell, since I'm not Jewish, it seems my opinion would mean nothing.
whats your opinion of the mosaic law in relation to god. are they his laws?
But yes, I think they are laws from God, revealed to Moses (thus the name), for the Jews of that time. I happen to think that Jesus brought a new covenant with God, rendering the Mosaic law obsolete. Since the Jews do not accept Jesus as anyone with any authority, they do not accept the new covenant, either. This means the most orthodox among them are limited to the old laws, since they do not feel that anything has come to supercede them.
I do not know for sure, but I think those Jews who do accept Jesus also accept the new covenant and therefore are not limited to the Mosaic law since they are Christian, first and foremost, regardless of their heritage. Islam separated from the Jews at the time of Abraham, so Mosaic law does not apply to them, either. They have since adopted their own Sharia law, also religiously based.