How do you read these? (Christian topic bewarned)

Originally posted by Suzianne
yes, sorcerors.

Meaning those who use the tools of the occult.

do christians believe the tools of the occult actually work?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
do christians believe the tools of the occult actually work?

Whether they work or not is not our business.

We are told that the occult is the work of the devil and we are to refrain from it. If it does work, it is bad mojo, powered by evil, and not from God.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Whether they work or not is not our business.

We are told that the occult is the work of the devil and we are to refrain from it. If it does work, it is bad mojo, powered by evil, and not from God.

are we talking crystal balls, tarot cards and horoscopes?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
are we talking crystal balls, tarot cards and horoscopes?

Yes, basically.

Oujia boards, too. Reading tea leaves, a lot can be shoehorned into the category, like those who claim to be able to divine the future.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, basically.

Oujia boards, too. Reading tea leaves, a lot can be shoehorned into the category, like those who claim to be able to divine the future.

are you allowed to open fortune cookies and shake those pool ball things?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really, if your salvation is assured as you claim, why does Christ state that, he or she
that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved, why does Paul speak of
putting up a fine fight for the faith, if your salvation is already assured, then these
verse have no real meaning and you are in fact making a mockery of the Bible. That
b ...[text shortened]... that you
are the recipient of Gods grace and another person unworthy? How will you explain it?

The problems with citing this verse in relation to assurance of salvation are numerous:

1) Endurance is self orinented and therfore of the flesh and therefore self righteous and not through grace.

2) If I endure until 5 minutes before "the end" will I fail to attain salvation? What about 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year etc....?

3) Chist said "greater things than this shall YOU do" when speaking about his miricles. Are we to presume that these "greater things" he is prophesying about will be performed by those who are not saved, the unsaved? Or by those who are saved for a while and then unsaved?

4) Predestination. There are names already written in the book of life. The Lord said "no one can deliver out of my hand". How can a persons name be in the book if their salvation is uncertain? If their name is in the book how can they be delivered out of His hand?

5) You say "why does Christ state". My answer is that I don't know. But I do know without any doubt whatsoever that because of the examples I have given above, that you are completely wrong.

Originally posted by divegeester
The problems with citing this verse in relation to assurance of salvation are numerous:

1) Endurance is self orinented and therfore of the flesh and therefore self righteous and not through grace.

2) If I endure until 5 minutes before "the end" will I fail to attain salvation? What about 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year etc....?

3) Chist said "greater thi oever that because of the examples I have given above, that you are completely wrong.

typical Calavanistic jive talk, without a single foundation in the entire Biblical cannon, predestination is a nonsense, it undermines the whole aspect of personal accountability and free will and fosters an elitist and self righteous attitude.

tell us us what is it about 'the end', he who endures to 'the end' that is difficult to understand? does it say the last five minutes, the last hour? No then what are you havering about?

yes Christ states that no one can be delivered out if his hand, was not Judas once faithful disciple, was he not hand picked by Christ himself? oh dear, not much left of the once saved, always saved argument left in his case, is there. There are numerous examples in scripture of persons who were Christians but for one reason or another did not remain in the faith.

Your examples present as usual a one dimensional perspective, its almost as if you see only a single side to any argument.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Id just like to point out the idea of Hell, as a place where persons are tortured perpetually for having sinned for seventy or eighty years, while being born sinful and having a predilection towards sin is entirely diametrically opposed to the idea of a loving God and in my opinion foments self righteousness.

An 80 old that sins 20 times a day is this in a life time: 584,400 sins.

Originally posted by RBHILL
An 80 old that sins 20 times a day is this in a life time: 584,400 sins.

indeed, perhaps you had better read the account of the wicked slave that went off and demanded money from a fellow slave after having been let off by his own master. Fact of the matter is, the wages of sin is death.

Originally posted by menace71
There is a rational argument for the annihilation concept and it can be argued from or with scripture. The JW's are not the only group that hold to this concept either. I'm not saying I believe it 100% but I have an open mind to look at it. Hypothetical: So you make it into bliss or heaven or paradise earth(whatever label we chose) but yet you know you have ...[text shortened]... troubled by eternal hell and if it not be so what a torment to the minds of men ?

Manny

It is clear from scripture that in the new heaven and the new earth there will be no memory of the former things. God will wipe those memories clean. They will be sent to the Recycle Bin and deleted and then the memory will be defragged. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, eternal means forever and ever. So, in this meaning, eternal fire means fire that burns forever. It does not mean those thrown into it burn forever. But this special lake does in fact kill their souls. "This is the second death."

The Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet are special examples. I do not know why their souls do not die in the lak they die the "second death", they can't come back. It is indeed eternal for them.

Jesus said the punishment was eternal not just the fire. See:

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" and also "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:41,46 NASB)

These accursed ones will go into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels and be punished forever and ever with them. But the righteous will live forever and ever.

Please show me scripture in which Jesus says that it is to be a short punishment and then end when they go into the eternal fire that lasts forever and ever.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus said the punishment was eternal not just the fire. See:

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said, “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the [b]eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" and also "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous i ...[text shortened]... short punishment and then end when they go into the eternal fire that lasts forever and ever.[/b]

how is it possible to burn something eternally? for example a human? will god burn
them and resurrect them after they have been reduced to ashes? This demonstrates
the lunacy of your claims, their punishment is everlasting because they will have no
prospect for eternal life and will undergo the second death, eternal cutting off from
God. I repeat, the wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment in a fiery hell.

Originally posted by Suzianne
But if those souls who are thrown into the lake of fire are annihilated, suffering the second death, then afterwards death can indeed be thrown into the lake of fire and eliminated, since there is no further use for it.

According to scripture the second death is the lake of fire that last forever and ever. The second death can not be annihilated because it must torment the devil and his angels (demons), the beast, the false prophet, and all the those unbelievers, whose names are not written in the book of life, forever and ever.

Death is just eliminated from the new heaven and the new earth after the old things have passed away. I made reference to this in my post. So it is obvious that you did not take much time to read and try to understand it, but chose to stick with some false teaching that someone has given you. Seek the truth!

HalleluYah ! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, since I'm not Jewish, it seems my opinion would mean nothing.

But yes, I think they are laws from God, revealed to Moses (thus the name), for the Jews of that time. I happen to think that Jesus brought a new covenant with God, rendering the Mosaic law obsolete. Since the Jews do not accept Jesus as anyone with any authority, they do not accept th ...[text shortened]... t apply to them, either. They have since adopted their own Sharia law, also religiously based.

Sharia law of Islam is influenced by Satan the devil IMO. 😏

Originally posted by stellspalfie
do christians believe the tools of the occult actually work?

They work for the destruction of those who use them.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/hallucinogens-lsd-peyote-psilocybin-pcp