Originally posted by KellyJayIf my Muslim neighbours die still Muslim, just as their ancestors have been doing for centuries, you believe that your God figure is going to torture them for eternity in burning flames because he will be angry and he will want revenge, is that right? And you also believe that this is moral and just, yes?
The limitation is us, how can anyone believe except they be told. Resistance is also given to the spread of the gospel by people too.
27 Oct 16
Originally posted by FMFBased on what you have said before, you believe God hasn't revealed himself to anyone, therefore all religions are false. And this 'truth' for you is established by a gut feeling that there is a God that hasn't revealed himself to anyone. Is that correct?
This is one of your ripcord questions, yet again ~ covering things that we have discussed before. I am not interested.
On the other hand, I am interested in the take you and KellyJay have on the implications (for the credibility of your ideology) of the fact that people have a better chance of being a Christian if they grow up in a Christian setting than in a Muslim setting.
27 Oct 16
3 edits
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeSure, and perhaps they find that 'truth' in Buddhism or Islam.
Sure, and perhaps they find that 'truth' in Buddhism or Islam.
Look chump (ad hominem) if you happened to have been born 400 years ago in Osaka Japan, you would 'almost certainly' have adhered to and practised the religions local to Japan, even if you were driven by 'truth.' - Christianity had made it to Japan in the 1600's but only a tiny percent ...[text shortened]... l' to find him then I think He would have made 'the truth' more readily accessible to everybody.
If Buddhism and Islam are mutually exclusive it means they can't both be 'true'. Either one of them is true and the other is false or they are both false. If truth is relative then everyone is right. But clearly that is not the case. Or do you believe all religions are true? Or are they all false? If they are all false then what is the truth?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkNo you are wrong. That is not the role that my "gut feeling" plays in my beliefs at all, as I think you know only too well. I have explained it very precisely and very clearly, and I have done so several times. The conclusion I have reached ~ that I have been given no convincing reason to believe that "God has revealed himself to anyone" ~ is firmly rooted in my entire adult life experience, the reading and learning I have done, the experiences I have had, the places I have lived; it is rooted in the full exercise of my intellect and of my spiritual dimension. It has not been "established by a gut feeling". I think you know this full well already. I explained it all to you explicitly in posts addressed to you and in answers to specific questions you asked me, and all this happened not so long ago.
Based on what you have said before, you believe God hasn't revealed himself to anyone, therefore all religions are false. And this 'truth' for you is established by a gut feeling that there is a God that hasn't revealed himself to anyone. Is that correct?
Originally posted by FMFSo if God hasn't revealed himself to anyone, how is 'truth' established? Since you believe the statement "God exists" is true, is it only 'true' for yourself or is it true for everyone? How did you establish this 'truth'?
No you are wrong. That is not the role that my "gut feeling" plays in my beliefs at all, as I think you know only too well. I have explained it very precisely and very clearly, and I have done so several times. The conclusion I have reached ~ that I have been given no convincing reason to believe that "God has revealed himself to anyone" ~ is firmly rooted in my ...[text shortened]... to you and in answers to specific questions you asked me, and all this happened not so long ago.
27 Oct 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI am interested in the discussion about the connection between geography and those who will be tortured by God (in so far as that ideology goes). I am not interested in your endless repetition of the same questions about "the truth" etc. etc. ad nauseam.
So if God hasn't revealed himself to anyone, how is 'truth' established? Since you believe the statement "God exists" is true, is it only 'true' for yourself or is it true for everyone? How did you establish this 'truth'?
27 Oct 16
Originally posted by FMFSo in other words you want me to answer your questions while you ignore mine?
I am interested in the discussion about the connection between geography and those who will be tortured by God (in so far as that ideology goes). I am not interested in your endless repetition of the same questions about "the truth" etc. etc. ad nauseam.
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIt is you who said Buddhism 'and' Islam. I clearly said Buddhism 'or' Islam.
[b]Sure, and perhaps they find that 'truth' in Buddhism or Islam.
If Buddhism and Islam are mutually exclusive it means they can't both be 'true'. Either one of them is true and the other is false or they are both false. If truth is relative then everyone is right. But clearly that is not the case. Or do you believe all religions are true? Or are they all false? If they are all false then what is the truth?[/b]
In the end, it always comes down to you believing your particular truth is the 'real truth' and that the other guys have got it wrong. But then, they probably feel the same about you and your argument is no more convincing.
And I don't necessarily believe all religions are mutually exclusive. If God does exist (he doesn't, but if he did) it would make far more sense for an all knowing deity to reveal himself locally to people through religions immediately accessible to them, rather than just through one religion reliant on human missionaries to spread the good news.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeAre you a relativist? If not what is your take on truth? Does it even exist? How is it established? To whom does it apply. Is truth always convincing to everyone? Is it possible to suppress the truth?
It is you who said Buddhism 'and' Islam. I clearly said Buddhism 'or' Islam.
In the end, it always comes down to you believing your particular truth is the 'real truth' and that the other guys have got it wrong. But then, they probably feel the same about you and your argument is no more convincing.
And I don't necessarily believe all religions ...[text shortened]... em, rather than just through one religion reliant on human missionaries to spread the good news.
27 Oct 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeSo if a discussion on truth is a tedious merry-go-round that you are not willing to get on I take it you are not on these forums to discover truth? Then the real question is what are you here for?
I'm not getting back on that tedious merry-go-round.
Laters
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSorry, should have said don't want to get on 'your' tedious truth merry-go-round.
So if a discussion on truth is a tedious merry-go-round that you are not willing to get on I take it you are not on these forums to discover truth? Then the real question is what are you here for?
You have been repeating the same things over and over again for months, irrespective of the replies received. Who wouldn't find that tedious? Do you think I come to the forums for tedium? - I can get that in the office.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThe TRUTH is this: Whether or not there is some kind of god out there, which we cannot 100% deny, religious or atheist since we are only in a tiny portion of a universe which may in fact be part of some kind of larger universe where ours is just one bubble on the foam of something infinitly larger and that infinite largeness could in fact contain SOME kind of god like being.
So if a discussion on truth is a tedious merry-go-round that you are not willing to get on I take it you are not on these forums to discover truth? Then the real question is what are you here for?
That said, what is obvious as the skin on your nose, said god has little to do with mankind, even if this being invented our universe or did the bible god deal and invented Earth and life on it.
There has been no sign of such a god for thousands of years and things now are a thousand times as critical for continued life on Earth, for humans, for plants, for animals, for marine life, things are starting to seriously fall apart and it matters little if you are on the side of the human caused climate change deniers or not, things are falling apart on Earth and there is no god coming down to fix our boo boo's.
AND there will be no god coming down if we in fact screw ourselves so badly we kill off ALL humanity and half the life forms of the planet with us.
Said god MIGHT show up then, going, oh well, failed experiment, NEXT....
THAT is what is really going on.
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Originally posted by FMF
I am interested in the discussion about the connection between geography and those who will be tortured by God (in so far as that ideology goes). I am not interested in your endless repetition of the same questions about "the truth" etc. etc. ad nauseam.
I am interested in the discussion about the connection between geography and those who will be tortured by God (in so far as that ideology goes). I am not interested in your endless repetition of the same questions about "the truth" etc. etc. ad nauseam.
FMF, in one of your good songs you had a lyric about you being a bird picking at a worm and the worm was you. Doesn't that sound like a kind of self torturing ?
Do you think it is possible that one could get locked into a state of self torturing his own soul, even maybe forever ?
If God wanted to save us from that state, would it make some sense for Him to described such a self torment as maybe a burning ?
I can see God communicating to human beings in terms they can understand, that an undying worm gnawing away in a unquenchable flame could stand for some perpetual self torment.
" Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me;
For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched ..." (Isaiah 66:24)
Jesus referred to this verse.